tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post111832568034456195..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Does Denying A Proof To The Torah's Divinity Make You A Kofer (Heretic)?BrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118890689829890212005-06-15T22:58:00.000-04:002005-06-15T22:58:00.000-04:00Thanks, krum. That's *exactly* what I said on the...Thanks, <B>krum</B>. That's *exactly* what I said on the Hasidic Rebbele's blog. :)<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118880503070198612005-06-15T20:08:00.000-04:002005-06-15T20:08:00.000-04:00I think there is a basic semantic issue that is co...I think there is a basic semantic issue that is confusing your correspondent. I don't think any sane person believes that the Chumash was given at Sinai because that raises the very obvious questions about Moshe's knowledge of the future. According to Gittin 60a, the Chumash was written either entirely at the end of Moshe's life, or "scroll by scroll" throughout the course of his life. Not at Sinai. What was given at Sinai were the mitzvos.Krum as a bagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06200692366780297732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118369936269686492005-06-09T22:18:00.000-04:002005-06-09T22:18:00.000-04:00I find it difficult to respect someone who will no...I find it difficult to respect someone who will not even engage in the common decency of typing out his entire thought/ the gist of his argument. When one resorts to abbreviations and others sorts of typos, that makes me think either they are not really processing their comments, or they are teenagers using AIM talk. But supposing I were to take this seriously:<BR/><BR/>No. Since there are no "official" mathematical or scientific proofs, all proofs that are proferred are probably of a variety that work for some people, but not for others. Therefore, should you claim that a proof has a fallacy, you are simply showing how that proof- which a man has created, not God- is incorrect. You are making the comeback that any person would make should someone else try to "sway" them with this idea. <BR/><BR/>As for the ideas about the text- I was taught that the entire Written Torah was written with the attribute of strict judgement. Hence such commands as "an eye for an eye" and so forth. The Oral Torah was written with the attribute of mercy, and it tempers the punishments- for example, an "eye for an eye" is really the monetary damage/ payment. This is a rather logical way to understand the Torah.<BR/><BR/>You are not a kofer. <BR/><BR/>The supposed Rebbele is not doing his job as a Rebbe. Anyone who has such contorted responses cannot even be clear within his own mind as to what he's going to say. This is reminiscent of Heshy and Halfnutcase. <BR/><BR/>As for being mad at Hashem- a sidepoint- were it to be the case, this should be perfectly understandable. If we truly believe we have a relationship with God, we should be able to express any and every emotion possible- anger, love, hatred, confusion. This is our God and we are His people. We have a right to express anything- <I>anything</I>- to Him. People who have an "off-limits" section to God cannot have a true and trusting relationship with Him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118346113055088562005-06-09T15:41:00.000-04:002005-06-09T15:41:00.000-04:00"my question is, what ARE your reasons or feelings..."<I>my question is, what ARE your reasons or feelings against Hashem that u r so "mad"? why are u not man enough to just say u r mad?</I>"<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2005/05/16/tomo/story.jpg" REL="nofollow">Mad at Hashem?</A>M-nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14544559966559522003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118342356722696942005-06-09T14:39:00.000-04:002005-06-09T14:39:00.000-04:00Ph...don't worry about what idiots say about you. ...Ph...don't worry about what idiots say about you. I have learned long ago to just ignore what they say, There's no point arguing with them because they are indoctrinated not to listen to "koifrim" (being anyone who's not just like them). <BR/><BR/>I saw part of the video and those "proofs" are ludicrous. Unfortunately, it's the same thing people have been selling for way too long. It works on some people, but it's especially hazardous for the doubting thinkers. I know a certain Principal, who I respect very much, who wouldn't let Rabbi Mechanic talk in his school for precisely that reason.tmeishar:https://www.blogger.com/profile/10834102883810511507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118336012668482912005-06-09T12:53:00.000-04:002005-06-09T12:53:00.000-04:00Your not a kofer. Certain orthodox circles have sa...Your not a kofer. Certain orthodox circles have sabotaged Judaism and have attached these stupid proofs in there. If anyone God forbid questions them we are called Kofrim... Well you know what, if thats what it takes to be kofer, than I would be proud to be called kofer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118330516156025972005-06-09T11:21:00.000-04:002005-06-09T11:21:00.000-04:00sorry rjt-stay with us and ask questions.MFM-The w...sorry rjt-stay with us and ask questions.<BR/>MFM-The worst is to <BR/>mevatel daas-daat yAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1118327722033280582005-06-09T10:35:00.000-04:002005-06-09T10:35:00.000-04:00"So, am I missing something here? Is one a kofer f..."So, am I missing something here? Is one a kofer for even questioning the "proofs,"<BR/><BR/>I take it that's a rhetorical question.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that people get locked into the idea that <I>any thought</I> that any rabbi who has been admitted into the canon of rabbis that have stood the test of time ever had is by definition Torah, and therefore logical and therefore one cannot question or dismiss it.<BR/><BR/>So, for example, the Kuzari proof for Sinai. Some people feel it is inviolable because R. Yehuda Ha-levi gave it, not because they've tested it and found it to be sound.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately the effect of this kind of thinking, which is really motivated by a fine desire to respect and honor our predecessors and their learning, is that it forces you to be "mevatel your daas", e.g., put your brain on ice.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.com