tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post112589113010755970..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: On Yeshivos and Personal LivesBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1127503143267834472005-09-23T15:19:00.000-04:002005-09-23T15:19:00.000-04:00Most yeshivas just use this as a springboard to de...Most yeshivas just use this as a springboard to deal with complaints. A rich family complains that his kids come home chanting stuff from movies because they get it from Chayim, who goes to movies. The hanhala can do nothing about it. Hence the rationale for the restrictions. That is why it should be handled democratically. If it truly is the parents demands, and not some hanhala power trip or some bug up the *** of one rich guy, then allow a vote.Rebeljewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134454584925044808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1127502801757213552005-09-23T15:13:00.000-04:002005-09-23T15:13:00.000-04:00BTWI do not have TV or go to movies personally.BTW<BR/><BR/>I do not have TV or go to movies personally.Rebeljewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134454584925044808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1127502665704221602005-09-23T15:11:00.000-04:002005-09-23T15:11:00.000-04:00One of me favorite rants, Wolf.I favor signing and...One of me favorite rants, Wolf.<BR/><BR/>I favor signing and doing as you please within limits. The reason is obvious. If they disrespect me so much that they feel the need to control me or distrust what I do in my own home, I have just as much respect for the rule of their law. The yeshiva cannot survive without students and tuition. Who has the gold, and who makes the rules? On the other hand, if a PTO meeting with a democratically run procedure, where ALL the parents were involved, VOTED such restrictions, I would feel bound by signing. The disagreeable part is that the administrator is some kind of Rabinic authority on proper conduct in MY home, whereas I should have no say, in his perfect world.Rebeljewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134454584925044808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126719545213883512005-09-14T13:39:00.000-04:002005-09-14T13:39:00.000-04:00Wolf - I know I am popping in kind of late here, b...Wolf - <BR/><BR/>I know I am popping in kind of late here, but I thought I would add my two cents. <BR/><BR/>There are many reasons why we chose the school we did, but one of the reasons is we don't believe a school has any right to enforce rules on our kids when they are off school grounds. <BR/><BR/>If we feel something is appropriate for our children, we are not going to allow a school administrator to tell us it is not acceptable.<BR/><BR/>And we were not willing to do what many of friends do, which is sign the handbook and then live life as they please.Air Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00198611603209768337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126529381762906642005-09-12T08:49:00.001-04:002005-09-12T08:49:00.001-04:00>When I send my kid off to school in a couple of y...>When I send my kid off to school in a couple of years, I plan to do just what I used to do when I was in yeshiva: pretend I'm a goody-goody and then do whatever the heck I feel like.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Jeff, that's all well and good. But doesn't it suck to have to live a double life? Its one thing to be forced to do it when you're 14, another when you're 35. Besides, sending your kids mixed messages won't turn out great.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126529374846545382005-09-12T08:49:00.000-04:002005-09-12T08:49:00.000-04:00>Many parents actually seem to want yeshivas to be...>Many parents actually seem to want yeshivas to be the sole religious authority - whether because of lack of time, lack of confidence or because they feel they are paying so much in tuition, they expect a hands on role from the school administration.<BR/><BR/>That's true. In that sense it's a deal with the devil. The fact is that the Orthodox Jewish community has passed the buck from itself to the yeshiva as the primary institution in Jewish life. It manifests itself from adults having to have their bar mitzvah plans vetted by elementary school principals to adults volunterring to defer to academy heads.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126493587277298622005-09-11T22:53:00.000-04:002005-09-11T22:53:00.000-04:00My plan if the time comes is to cross out all clau...My plan if the time comes is to cross out all clauses in the contract that we don't agree or will not comply with. <BR/><BR/>By doing such, we will send a message about who is to raise our children (that is us, the school is there to assist us, not take over) and we will not be teaching dishonesty to our children. <BR/><BR/>I wonder if any school dares accept our children!?!?!?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126276924478067552005-09-09T10:42:00.000-04:002005-09-09T10:42:00.000-04:00Alan - It's not so much that the school's hashkafa...<B>Alan</B> - <BR/><BR/>It's not so much that the school's hashkafa differs from mine. It's that it seems to be part of a growing trend among yeshivos to try to assert authority in an area where they don't have business asserting that authority. It's not just my kids' yeshiva - it's many others. Mine, at least, isn't as bad as others that I've heard about.<BR/><BR/><B>Ben Avuyah</B> -<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the warning. Truthfully, however, (as I mentioned above) there aren't too many places that I'd want to send my kid to begin with anyway. While this yeshiva is somewhat RW, it's considered "liberal" by many, many others. It's secular studies department, while far from perfect, is also better than that of many other yeshivos.<BR/><BR/>While they do have their preferences (they'd prefer it if kids didn't watch TV, etc.), at least they bow to reality and don't demand that parents get rid of their TVs, internet connections, etc.<BR/><BR/><B>Jeff</B> - <BR/><BR/>That's exactly the approach I *wouldn't* take. I want my son to grow up honest and moral. Lying to break the rules is immoral. Period. If you voluntarily subject yourself to a set of rules, you are morally bound to uphold those rules.<BR/><BR/>That's why I don't take my sons to movies - not because I don't believe in them, but because the Yeshiva has a rule that their students cannot go to the movie theatre. Period. Sure I could take them to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and tell them to keep quiet about it in school - but what message am I really sending to my kids then? The message is that it's alright and OK to break the rules when you can get away with it. Sorry, but that's not the message that I want to send to them. So, they obey the yeshiva's rules, even if they personally disagree with them - that's the price of attendance.<BR/><BR/><B>PT</B><BR/><BR/>I've actually considered that. But, truth to tell, there's not too much in an all-boys yeshiva (and yes, that's a must for us) that will be much "better" than we currently have.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126267718984835102005-09-09T08:08:00.000-04:002005-09-09T08:08:00.000-04:00When I send my kid off to school in a couple of ye...When I send my kid off to school in a couple of years, I plan to do just what I used to do when I was in yeshiva: pretend I'm a goody-goody and then do whatever the heck I feel like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126224813522018382005-09-08T20:13:00.000-04:002005-09-08T20:13:00.000-04:00Cheerful!Cheerful!M-nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14544559966559522003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126219258376876212005-09-08T18:40:00.000-04:002005-09-08T18:40:00.000-04:00misnagid,Was that supposed to be helpful or just p...misnagid,<BR/>Was that supposed to be helpful or just plain mean-spirited.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126214737692013942005-09-08T17:25:00.000-04:002005-09-08T17:25:00.000-04:00"They had previously outlawed internet, secular mu..."<I>They had previously outlawed internet, secular music, many books and magazines. This year they limited the hours when boys can go to the public library (presumably because of internet access), eliminated palm pilots (much to the chagrin of my older son, who had invested in a nice one), and have added ipods to the list of prohibited items (headphone listening is never allowed anyway).<BR/><BR/>In addition, they censor magazines and newspapers that the boys get.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Ahhh, such fertile ground for growing recoverees. They'll reap what they've sown.M-nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14544559966559522003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126207236492070112005-09-08T15:20:00.000-04:002005-09-08T15:20:00.000-04:00Wolf, you may need to broaden your potential pool ...Wolf, you may need to broaden your potential pool of institutions. Find one that you agree with a little more. It'll spare you from dealing with major conflict down the road.<BR/><BR/>Where I am, we have only one boys HS, and I'm sending two boys there now. It has moved a little farther to the right in terms of isolationism in the year since our first boy started and our second boy is starting.<BR/><BR/>They had previously outlawed internet, secular music, many books and magazines. This year they limited the hours when boys can go to the public library (presumably because of internet access), eliminated palm pilots (much to the chagrin of my older son, who had invested in a nice one), and have added ipods to the list of prohibited items (headphone listening is never allowed anyway).<BR/><BR/>In addition, they censor magazines and newspapers that the boys get. Boys cannot spend shabboses in houses where there are teenage girls (like mine until recently), TV or internet access. Of course, they can't tell me my son can't come home, but his roommate can't come with him.<BR/><BR/>I understand where all this comes from. Personally, I'm not too upset that my son can't spend hours upon hours surfing the net instead of doing his homework or going to beis medresh. I'm a little annoyed that I can't communicate with him via email or cell phone, but I deal with it. Some of the other stuff (cutting ads out of the newpapers or magazines) seems a little over the top but whatever. <BR/><BR/>For boys at least, there are many ways for them to get in trouble, and the Yeshivas are trying to limit those avenues whereever possible. Porn is everywhere on the net, and even if you don't go looking for it, it shows up in your mailbox. The old days of going down to the drug store and sneaking something out in a paper bag are gone for good.<BR/><BR/>However, they have to understand that at some point, these boys have to learn about self-discipline and how to be descriminating in the real world, and they won't learn it this way. I wonder if once they leave this opressive system they won't have a clue of what is appropriate and what isn't.<BR/><BR/>And at the point where they start telling ME how to live my life, they've crossed a line.<BR/><BR/>With the Bar Mitzvah thing: maybe they want input on what kind of hat your kid will wear or some other shtick?PsychoToddlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874353280798371891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126195414373607262005-09-08T12:03:00.000-04:002005-09-08T12:03:00.000-04:00BTW...they really aren't too clear on our oldest's...BTW...they really aren't too clear on our oldest's name anyway. I'll remind you that about 4 years ago they began to refer to him by a common nickname for his given name. That would be fine and well if we used that nickname, or if he liked it. However, you know that I absolutely hate when they call him that (or print it on all his school labels!!), and he really doesn't like it either. I wonder how they would feel if we would stop paying tuition for the nicknamed one. But, funny thing is, they do get his name right on bills...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126115073613006952005-09-07T13:44:00.000-04:002005-09-07T13:44:00.000-04:00but if you have raised your children with open min...<I>but if you have raised your children with open minds, a yeshiva that is very constrictive may be difficult for them to accept.</I><BR/><BR/>What yeshiva out there is NOT constrictive? So I guess your option is to either stop teaching your kids to have an open mind or send them to a public school, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126102079740989592005-09-07T10:07:00.000-04:002005-09-07T10:07:00.000-04:00BrooklynWolf you must pay full tutionBrooklynWolf you must pay full tutionAMSHINOVERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07680072149053035110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126084443475168342005-09-07T05:14:00.000-04:002005-09-07T05:14:00.000-04:00In a world where Yeshivas are becoming ever frumme...In a world where Yeshivas are becoming ever frummer, expect this problem to become worse and worse.<BR/><BR/>Watch all the institutions compete with each other, as to who can think up the most draconian rules.Frummer?????https://www.blogger.com/profile/06774745980782453622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126063637715737692005-09-06T23:27:00.000-04:002005-09-06T23:27:00.000-04:00it's a version of control and indoctrination. 7th ...it's a version of control and indoctrination. 7th & 8th graders are very impressionable and easily swayed. so if your favorite teacher says something , you take notice. imagine the power if it is your rebbe or the menahal. in order to keep this type of control you need to control everthing. Nothing can be left to chance; hence meeting with the parents. once again the school reinforces or more accurately enforces their ideas of what is the proper derech. if you deviate from this derech you are not a good torah jew. this is the sad part because not all students are the same.<BR/><BR/>your right it is the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules in reverse. we need their services because of hascafah, so they can make whatever rules they want. realistically how many choices are there if you are looking for a certain hashkafah? the schools know this and do what they want. a number of the ones in my area have so-so secular ed but parents put up with it because that is the haskafah they seek.<BR/><BR/>what i have figured out is how did we evolve to the state of black hat ayattollahs, and such friction between various segments of the yeshiva world. i suppose that is a topic for another time.<BR/><BR/>good luck w/ the barmitzvah. mazal tov!queeniesmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01019952170168937114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126062628366173882005-09-06T23:10:00.000-04:002005-09-06T23:10:00.000-04:00Many parents actually seem to want yeshivas to be ...Many parents actually seem to want yeshivas to be the sole religious authority - whether because of lack of time, lack of confidence or because they feel they are paying so much in tuition, they expect a hands on role from the school administration. I think if more parents didn't abdicate their responsibilities in providing their child with a religious path, yeshivot would not feel so emboldened to make demands.MC Aryehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15391548803569665725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126060337297989712005-09-06T22:32:00.000-04:002005-09-06T22:32:00.000-04:00This may continue when your kids are "in the parsh...This may continue when your kids are "in the parshah" (ugh). Hilly Gross wrote an article several years ago saying that the rabbeim try to control this, too. I haven't had any personal experience with this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126052774539336272005-09-06T20:26:00.000-04:002005-09-06T20:26:00.000-04:00I think hedyot hits the nail on the head here. Thi...I think hedyot hits the nail on the head here. This is about control. <BR/><BR/>Several people in my graduating class, despite passing grades, were told they weren't ready for their diplomas yet. spend a few years in beis medrish then we will see...I was applying for graduate schools while they meandered through their lives still under the thumb of the menahel.<BR/><BR/>My best freind got his diploma with a question mark scribled on the back of it...<BR/><BR/>Be careful wolf,<BR/>You should know that the yeshivas tactic is going to be to isolate their student to only one point of veiw. I can't believe that is what you are a proponent of...your such a rational guy. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but if you have raised your children with open minds, a yeshiva that is very constrictive may be difficult for them to accept. <BR/><BR/>Just a thought, I don't mean to offend, of course you know better than I the particulars of your family, but it is something to consider...<BR/><BR/>Insulation from curse words is great, Insulation from reality is a different story.Ben Avuyahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08814145983874592449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126043473813785792005-09-06T17:51:00.000-04:002005-09-06T17:51:00.000-04:00Regarding the bar mitzvah issue, I can think of va...Regarding the bar mitzvah issue, I can think of valid reasons why they'd want to discuss it with parents (which other commenters raised), but it doesn't give them a right to demand it. The problem though is that they do feel they have a right to make any demands they want. Even in those areas which are absolutely the responsibility of the parents. Where do they get this chutzpah from? IMHO, it stems from the fact that they believe that despite the fact that parents are parents, if they (the school, the rabbeim, the hanhala, etc.) are more "torahdik" then the parents, then they have a right to pursue what they view as the more proper path, even if it is contrary to the parents wishes. Of course, most rabbeim will only act on such a belief sparingly, knowing full well that if they do this too much there'll be a serious backlash. But the fundamental basis for their acting this way (as in your examples) is the above perspective. They see themselves as serving the childs interests better than the parents. Parents may be parents but they don't always know what's best for the child (especially when it comes to their ruchniyus).<BR/><BR/>Even more disturbing than that is the parents who buy into that crap and absolve themselves of their parental responsibilities and effectively hand over their kids to the school to do with as they please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126043176471141212005-09-06T17:46:00.000-04:002005-09-06T17:46:00.000-04:00How come you're sending your children to a school ...How come you're sending your children to a school that (apparently) conflicts with your hashkafot so explicitly?<BR/>-alan scottAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126036967843472452005-09-06T16:02:00.000-04:002005-09-06T16:02:00.000-04:00Maybe they want to talk about having a nice tznius...Maybe they want to talk about having a nice tzniusdik laid-back bar mitzva that doesn't cost too much.Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1126031571123306082005-09-06T14:32:00.000-04:002005-09-06T14:32:00.000-04:00I'm afraid not, Gil, because they actually (correc...I'm afraid not, <B>Gil</B>, because they actually (correctly) address that elsewhere in the admittence booklet. In addition, it would be much easier to hand out notices to all the 7th and 8th graders regarding such rules rather than having the parents come in for a discussion.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.com