tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post37041118902632833..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: It's Very DepressingBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-53961418532692535562010-01-14T09:48:35.994-05:002010-01-14T09:48:35.994-05:00This post resonates with me just as it does with t...This post resonates with me just as it does with the other commentators here. I don't see it as a bad thing though that orthodoxy is showing some cracks at the seams. It's pretty much what one would hope to see if one were looking for signs of an impending neo-haskalah movement, as I have been predicting for some time. When the thoughtful individuals who live and thrive in the heart of a community begin to see its value system and social structure as broken, that is a pretty good indicator that the younger generation will begin to stray from the community. We are seeing that now in Flatbush, where the level of observance and community "loyalty" of the 25-35 year old population group is markedly weaker than among the 35-45 year olds. Just to name one data point, Agudah has not made any real headway in getting the 40 and below crowd to become involved despite some real efforts to attract them. This trend will only accelerate.Mikeskepticnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-26201313951167200662009-12-28T13:41:19.816-05:002009-12-28T13:41:19.816-05:00Excellent post, and mostly excellent comments, esp...Excellent post, and mostly excellent comments, esp. from anon 4:51 and Baal Habos.Arinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-91923067237206259342009-12-28T02:03:38.024-05:002009-12-28T02:03:38.024-05:00Yes but what is the underlying cause of extremism?...Yes but what is the underlying cause of extremism?<br /><br />I believe it is simply a backlash, a backlash against the almost certain knowledge that religion as we know it- as the total system that had all the answers dictated from above- is coming to an end. <br /><br />This is not to minimize the potential damaging effects that a backlash can have.sara maimonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-27821771061882925682009-12-28T00:28:40.909-05:002009-12-28T00:28:40.909-05:00If it's any comfort, at least we're all sa...If it's any comfort, at least we're all sane. :)G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-8279320633804132432009-12-26T23:30:46.216-05:002009-12-26T23:30:46.216-05:00I honestly could not have said this better myself....I honestly could not have said this better myself. Makes me wanna look for something else... a truer Truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-60299237715945003702009-12-25T18:43:33.964-05:002009-12-25T18:43:33.964-05:00"The underlying cause of all this, IMHO, is e..."The underlying cause of all this, IMHO, is extremism."<br /><br />The underlying problem is discrepancy between false philosophies and reality. The increasingly negative consequences of greater, more consistent adherence to a philosophy is a sign that it is fundamentally wrong.<br /><br />"In truth, the further left you go, the more moral and more truthful the religion gets."<br /><br />That's because there's less of it!<br /><br />Different communities have the same conversation "Judaism says A, scientific and historical evidence indicate not A, but B. How much scientific ambiguity allows us to keep Judaism, and how much textual ambiguity makes it safe to drop the Torah belief?" Having to make this judgement call will *inevitably* lead to endless schism and judging others as irrational or heretical. Part of making that decision is a *rejection* of alternate approaches.<br /><br />Incidentally, I'm not impressed by the ability of liberals professing different religious beliefs to get along. They actually have the same core belief - secular tolerance - and are religious when it doesn't interfere with that. I support tolerance, but it's much easier without pretending to know what a creator of the universe wants everyone to do.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11958115795753496384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-37042585111897916742009-12-25T15:43:31.542-05:002009-12-25T15:43:31.542-05:00I agree with anonymous. The extremists have taken...I agree with anonymous. The extremists have taken over. And the non-extremists are so scared of looking not holy enough that they don't do anything about it. Stop looking to the so-called gedolim to the right of you as if they are somehow superior. They are not. Their take on the religion is worse -- both morally and factually. <br /><br />It's time for the MO and Orthoprax to step up and stop cowering at the thought of being thought of as less-than by the extremists. Newsflash: they already think that way of you, just as you already think that way of the Conservative and Reform movements.<br /><br />In truth, the further left you go, the more moral and more truthful the religion gets. You know, deep down, that Conservatives are more right about biblical authorship than the Orthodox, and that the Reform are more right about homosexuality than the Conservatives.<br /><br />The root of the problem is not keeping up with the Joneses, but keeping up with the extremists. Stand up, speak the truth with courage, and do what's right instead of what a bunch of crazy people tell you is right.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-90594096439801387612009-12-25T10:08:54.099-05:002009-12-25T10:08:54.099-05:00This is an excellent post. It states all the issue...This is an excellent post. It states all the issues that Orthodox Judaism faces. I disagree with those who say each one of us should look at ourselves and try to be the best we can be. Although this is true, if everyone does this, who will stop the crazies? How will we unite Judaism by ignoring the problem? The people who care about Judaism need to form organizations that fight against these corrupt organizations and policies.<br /><br />For example, I am not sure if anyone is familiar with the Gemorah about Rabban Gamliel (I think) who was the first one to be buried in his tachrichen (what garment, kitel). There was a huge problem back in the day, everyone was going broke throwing funerals. Many people went into debt and wasted all of their money because everyone was trying to outspend everyone else when it came to burying their loved one. Rabban Gamliel saw this huge problem and how it was destroying the community. He announced that when he died he wanted only simple clothes that were cheap and that is it. No more of this being buried with gold, silver, expensive clothes, etc. <br /><br />Rabban Gamliel stood up to a major problem and saved the financial state of all of Israel. We need someone, or an organization, that will do similar things. An organization that bans child molesters when some communities try to protect them. An organization that protects Geirim from being deemed unfit. An organization that can figure out how to make Jewish education affordable. So on... <br /><br />We need people to stand up and lead, not just give piskei halacha. That is important, but Judaism needs leaders. We can not just sit and work on ourselves, we need someone to grab the reins and lead. Preferably someone who is not involved in scandals and immorality. <br /><br />The biggest problem is the fact that so many sects of Judaism (within orthodox Judaism) try to delegitimize one another. This has got to stop before anything can be accomplished. Why do the gedolim, on all sides, allow this?E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-62943307148213378962009-12-25T07:45:15.745-05:002009-12-25T07:45:15.745-05:00It's sad that a well-thought out comment that ...It's sad that a well-thought out comment that is against extremism had to be posted anonymously. It's a shame that someone is afraid that anti-extremist views will make him a target or tarnish him in some way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-53528527588409177192009-12-25T04:51:59.967-05:002009-12-25T04:51:59.967-05:00I almost never post anonymously, but this time I m...I almost never post anonymously, but this time I must. I'm a middle-aged man with a family who's been frum for 30 years. I share all of your angst and am too deeply pained by this storm that's enveloped us. <br /><br />The underlying cause of all this, IMHO, is extremism. This may be of little comfort, but it's not just us. Yes, we have our extremist Chareidim who try to force their standards on everyone. We have our extremist MO's who have no tolerance for anyone to the right of them. We have our extremist RZ's who burn down mosques and are will to sacrifice everything for their messianic views. And on and on.<br /><br />The broader world is suffering from this too. There are extremist Moslems, who are wrecking havoc everywhere. There are extremist liberals who are trying to destroy the moral fabric Western civilizaiton. There are extremist environmentalist who would throw the entire world into poverty to advance their agenda. And on, on.<br /><br />Seems more depressing no? But it's not. Because when you look around, when you look under all the extremism, which really only comes from a minority of people. You see people, regular people. People who want to live, to love, to be happy, to eat, to have shelter. People who care about others. People who want to be cared about. Scratch the surface and that's who's there. And they are Moslem, Jewish, Palestinian, white, black, women, men. <br /><br />In life I've learned that you can learn more from those who behave badly. You can learn who not to behave, how not to think, and how not to treat other people. It's changed my life. I never yell at people I work with, because I have a boss who does. I don't judge other people's religious behavior because I hate being judged by others. You get the idea.<br /><br />I've also learned that we, as Jews, are no different than anyone else. That's evident from all the examples you brought. We have no genetic edge over anyone. We're not "chosen" to be better than others. The rest of humanity are not props on the stage of our existance. <br /><br />We were "chosen" to be messengers. To bring the beauty of Torah to the world. We CAN be better if we properly follow the Torah. And anyone who chooses to join us and follow the Torah can be better too. Anyone. And through our example, when we're doing it right, everyone can benefit.<br /><br />I don't have the answer for the big problems. All I can suggest is that each of us, who are so affected by what's going, must improve ourselves by internalizing how NOT to be, by rejecting "their" example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-70510156049031566382009-12-24T22:38:49.589-05:002009-12-24T22:38:49.589-05:00Baal Habos -
I'm well aquainted with the quote...Baal Habos -<br />I'm well aquainted with the quote, which is why I found your version so incredible :DG6https://www.blogger.com/profile/15932781801654313054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-87231175525178736822009-12-24T22:34:10.706-05:002009-12-24T22:34:10.706-05:00Well it's a bit paraphrased , a take off of Ro...Well it's a bit paraphrased , a take off of Rome Burning, while Nero fiddling. But I'm OK with profound!Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12708709283367559562009-12-24T22:06:10.644-05:002009-12-24T22:06:10.644-05:00"Judaism is burning while everyone is fiddlin...<i>"Judaism is burning while everyone is fiddling with Strawberries."</i><br /><br />That is profound.G6https://www.blogger.com/profile/15932781801654313054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-30209351537734946712009-12-24T21:39:06.026-05:002009-12-24T21:39:06.026-05:00(Skeptic hat off).
What's terrible is that the...(Skeptic hat off).<br />What's terrible is that the people in my frum circle aren't even cognizant of the issues at more than a superficial level. I.e. They see Tropper simply as a sex scandal involving a Rabbi; without even being aware of issues such as Slifkin, Geirus, his close ties to the "Gedolim", etc. Judaism is burning while everyone is fiddling with Strawberries.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-40203373933367618392009-12-24T20:42:54.758-05:002009-12-24T20:42:54.758-05:00Wonderful post.
A testament on its own as to why y...Wonderful post.<br />A testament on its own as to why you must continue blogging....G6https://www.blogger.com/profile/15932781801654313054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1346629050514671102009-12-24T20:33:22.729-05:002009-12-24T20:33:22.729-05:00Very good post. I beleive that haShem is our only ...Very good post. I beleive that haShem is our only hope. He, blessed be He is breaking us. As far as the Mashiach is concerned, as the late Rav Kaduri stated, he will be accepted by the non-religious Jews and the religious will have a very hard time with him. I think haShem is sending what we need, not what we think we need. <br /><br />I hope haShem opens the doors soon. He sends the answer before the problem appears. I think we have not hit the bottom yet to reveal the solution. Keep blogging and don't fretShilohnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-43174112299792188562009-12-24T16:22:37.505-05:002009-12-24T16:22:37.505-05:00You're so right that it is depressing. Not mu...You're so right that it is depressing. Not much out there happening to give chizuk that things are going to get better either.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-66559688113870983052009-12-24T15:51:23.867-05:002009-12-24T15:51:23.867-05:00I agree with you, it's very depressing, and it...I agree with you, it's very depressing, and it's enough to turn us all off our own religion.<br />I think you just inspired me to do a posting of my own about it.<br />Keep writing, because we need good blogs now more than ever.Devorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-53898530301852074892009-12-24T15:24:31.444-05:002009-12-24T15:24:31.444-05:00It is depressing.
I think that if people, in gene...It is depressing.<br /><br />I think that if people, in general, could learn to live and let live and not be afraid of ideas different than their own the world would be a much better place.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1914360796591302872009-12-24T14:04:03.813-05:002009-12-24T14:04:03.813-05:00Wow! I think this is a gfeat post on all of the ne...Wow! I think this is a gfeat post on all of the negative issues facing Orthodox Judaism today.<br />We really need some answers.#2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-18531361653350908802009-12-24T13:59:50.780-05:002009-12-24T13:59:50.780-05:00Remember that on the Yom HaDin you will not be ask...Remember that on the Yom HaDin you will not be asked what you thought of the rabbis who stole or the pedophiles at the local yeshiva. You will be asked: Did you do your best to be a good person? Isn't that enough to keep each of us busy for the next few decades?<br />Do we have flaws as a people? Um, yeah, a few. But sometimes it's hard enough for each of us to remember that ultimately we each have to be the best person we can be without worrying about what the other guys are doing.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.com