tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post4104296139695334129..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Logic Lesson Of The Day: The False AnalogyBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1219494369648134222010-03-26T18:26:18.874-04:002010-03-26T18:26:18.874-04:00oh, im aware of the law, Its the SHOULD that I am ...oh, im aware of the law, Its the SHOULD that I am after. I think the law has gone to the extremeHoly Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-32274198804316415392010-03-26T15:26:02.130-04:002010-03-26T15:26:02.130-04:00Hyrax,
I didn't reply to your question. I hap...Hyrax,<br /><br />I didn't reply to your question. I happen to disagree with you, as does the law. This country allows you to put all your energy into building your own business IF you comply with all its laws. Those laws include many things, such as filing and paying taxes, as well as providing equal opportunity employment.<br /><br />So, despite the fact that your boss has a certain vision for the business he put so much energy into - insofar as that vision conflicts with the law he does not have the right to act on it.<br /><br />If what you are asking is SHOULD the law be that way, I remove myself from the discussion.LW2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-23922159487945365932010-03-26T15:20:34.671-04:002010-03-26T15:20:34.671-04:00Hyrax,
Sorry if my argument wasn't clear enou...Hyrax,<br /><br />Sorry if my argument wasn't clear enough. Take a hair salon as an example - it's not unusual to find male hair stylists. Imagine that a frum woman comes in and a male stylist waves her over - she'd politely refuse, and wait for a female stylist to be available.<br /><br />I think of a sheitel store as a hair salon that exclusively serves frum women. The sheitel store can hire male stylists, but all the customers will politely refuse them, allowing the employer to legally terminate them. We know this at the time of hire, which is why male sheitel machers need not apply. However, if the courts demanded it (foolishly I might add), the sheitel store could hire and fire and be in full compliance.LW2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-23717256955114250542010-03-26T14:32:24.557-04:002010-03-26T14:32:24.557-04:00So if Jews will shop more at groceries with Jewish...So if Jews will shop more at groceries with Jewish employees that would be sufficient to hire only Jews?Ladnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-56094497891972526092010-03-26T14:28:39.642-04:002010-03-26T14:28:39.642-04:00LW2
Your argument is one of outcome. Will the sto...LW2<br /><br />Your argument is one of outcome. Will the store loose money or not? Will customers come back or not? I am really looking at this in terms of Liberty. Should you have a right to hire whoever you want....even IF it might mean financial collapse or success.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-85247190203274778022010-03-26T13:43:43.926-04:002010-03-26T13:43:43.926-04:00P.P.S. However, I see no reason why a white actor ...P.P.S. However, I see no reason why a white actor wearing sufficient black makeup could be discriminated against.LW2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-73943051729408124142010-03-26T13:41:25.579-04:002010-03-26T13:41:25.579-04:00The whole Sheitel store question is irrelevant. Sa...The whole Sheitel store question is irrelevant. Salespeople are only as useful as the revenue they produce. Therefore, IF there was an adverse ruling against sheitel stores (and as an aside, I strongly believe that the law would NOT require them to hire men), they could easily comply and stay in business, because all customers would ask for a saleswoman. Then, the salesmen could be fired for being useless.<br /><br />Same goes for boutiques, and all the other logical examples. This does <b>not</b> apply to B&H.<br /><br />P.S. I've seen Hamlet played by a black actor, but I've never seen Othello played by a <i>white</i> actor. This is because Othello's skin color is essential to the story line. I imagine the same is true for MLK.LW2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-74106076175336851882010-03-26T13:18:43.005-04:002010-03-26T13:18:43.005-04:00Exactly. I too am tired of the nonsense of "m...Exactly. I too am tired of the nonsense of "minorities" (but only certain "protected minorities" -- Jews need not apply) getting preferential treatment in governmental hiring, academia, and even bullying (via courts and media) private business to provide such preferential treatment today. <br /><br />Today the white man and the Jew is last on the line and are discriminated against -- with the full backing of the corrupt court systems.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-19622078514042431432010-03-26T12:44:11.401-04:002010-03-26T12:44:11.401-04:00>Most victims of discrimination don't sue a...>Most victims of discrimination don't sue and discrimination suits are among the hardest to win.<br /><br />No, they just settle mostly out of court.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-9859741472533376862010-03-26T12:43:28.395-04:002010-03-26T12:43:28.395-04:00>Any affirmative action that once existed is la...>Any affirmative action that once existed is largely gone.<br /><br />That isn't exactly a consolation.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12554479005752683202010-03-26T08:26:49.780-04:002010-03-26T08:26:49.780-04:00mlevin: your comments about Blacks, women and oth...mlevin: your comments about Blacks, women and other minorities not needing to try hard and that they will be accepted into college and get a good job regardless is hogwash. Any affirmative action that once existed is largely gone. Blacks, women and hispanics and most other minorities still have to work harder to prove themselves. Most victims of discrimination don't sue and discrimination suits are among the hardest to win.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-84292993173288942552010-03-26T01:04:37.141-04:002010-03-26T01:04:37.141-04:00Mike S. - I have a problem with some of the civil ...Mike S. - I have a problem with some of the civil rights decisions of the 1960s. As long as there is no law prohibiting someone from hiring a black/woman/gay or anything else, I don't see why there should be a law forcing someone to hire black/woman/gay or anything else. <br /><br />It is simple economics. Back in Soviet Union there were laws against Jews, but Jews still managed to get ahead. Why? Because they tried hard. In United States today a black person does not need to try hard,he will still be accepted into a college and he will still get a good job just because of the color of his skin... or else he will sue. Same applies to women and other minorities. All in the name of diversity.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-14637655433070977752010-03-25T23:59:09.725-04:002010-03-25T23:59:09.725-04:00>However, when significant portions of the econ...>However, when significant portions of the economy are closed off to people on the basis of race, nationality, religion or gender the society is manifestly unjust.<br /><br />Could be. I don't tend to look at it so black and white as that. It just might be unethical or wrong, depending on the circumstances. I think today, in response to the past, we have shifted to the other extreme. I don't particular think an individual has a right to be hired by someone that absolutely does not want that person. If so, someone could sue my boss a long time ago. <br /><br />And I guess my bigger problem is how I see this attitude trickle down to other segments of society (i.e. my examples above)Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-72822814941039878032010-03-25T20:08:20.252-04:002010-03-25T20:08:20.252-04:00Hyrax: Your position was a long standing one in A...Hyrax: Your position was a long standing one in American history, and was the subject of fierce controversy in the debates leading up to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Barry Goldwater opposed the act precisely because he felt people had a right to run their business as they pleased. Ultimately, however, the fact that huge swaths of the economy were off limits to Blacks was too troublesome to allow the view to prevail. Likewise, when I was younger, help wanted ads were divided by gender. And essentially all the high paying jobs were reserved for men.<br /><br />If all one had to deal with were an occasional Hasidic camera shop, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, when significant portions of the economy are closed off to people on the basis of race, nationality, religion or gender the society is manifestly unjust. That was the America I grew up in; I would not want to return to that society. Perhaps society has progressed to the point where, if we relaxed the laws, businesses that discriminated would be an insignificant fraction. But I am not really eager to try the experiment.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-77744338551630002392010-03-25T16:50:12.168-04:002010-03-25T16:50:12.168-04:00>For those who think that because B&H is a ...>For those who think that because B&H is a private business they should be able to do whatever they want, would you also think that it is just fine for all of B&H's suppliers (Canon, Kodak, Nikon, etc.) to decide we aren't going to do business with B&H because they are a bunch of jews and we don't like doing business with jews and besides, our religion says we should favor our own.<br /><br />Fine??? No, I think its repulsive. But why would a Jew sue over this? These companies don't want to do business with you, so you going to force them? <br />Like I said, my company wont hire a man for front desk receptionist. Should they sue to get some money? Why? My boss does not want you.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-19847733561507325792010-03-25T14:25:24.083-04:002010-03-25T14:25:24.083-04:00For those who think that because B&H is a priv...For those who think that because B&H is a private business they should be able to do whatever they want, would you also think that it is just fine for all of B&H's suppliers (Canon, Kodak, Nikon, etc.) to decide we aren't going to do business with B&H because they are a bunch of jews and we don't like doing business with jews and besides, our religion says we should favor our own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-62714502559638340262010-03-25T14:22:09.443-04:002010-03-25T14:22:09.443-04:00Holy Hyrax: While it is true that there are frivo...Holy Hyrax: While it is true that there are frivolous suits, the courts tend to be very good at weeding them out. The fact that there are some frivolous suits doesn't mean there are no legitimate suits. One of the great things about this country is that we have a great tradition of resolving things peacefully, rather than through riots and stone throwing. The courts are central to that function.<br /><br />It is not an issue of entitlement. Great strides have been made (including many that have benefitted jews) via civil rights law suits. But then again, I'm sure you thought the Browns in Brown v. Board of Education had an improper sense of entitlement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-5316114824107915002010-03-25T01:01:04.509-04:002010-03-25T01:01:04.509-04:00>Of COURSE it's different. There is nothing...>Of COURSE it's different. There is nothing about Hamlet that demands a white or black actor<br /><br />No, its not different. The simple fact that Hamlet was white should be enough for a director to say NO to whoever does not fit that description.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-55258414794408061972010-03-25T00:58:42.504-04:002010-03-25T00:58:42.504-04:00Personally, I am on the side of B&H here. In o...Personally, I am on the side of B&H here. In our own business, our boss will absolutely NOT hire a man to be the front desk receptionist. He only wants a woman, that he feels greets people with warmness etc etc. The point is, he has a specific vision of what he wants for the business that he has put so much energy in. <br /><br />But there is another facet here that troubles me. It is the sense of entitlement that people that have that they actually WANT to sue. It's that they feeled owed by someone elses hard labor. Its its this same sort of entitlement that had a "plumpier" woman sue a dance instructor for not hiring her because she was fat. A photographer sued in Arizona for refusing to be hired for a gay reception due to it goign against her values/religion and recently a man that successfully won a lawsuit against eHarmony for not giving a 'gay' option on that site. Nevermind that fact, that eHarmony, or any other business might actually GET MORE business. They might be more successful, but its irrelevent (at least to me). The point is, a person should have a right to have a specific vision for his business. If someone does not like it, they can go someplace else.<br /><br />Call it the "trickle-down-entitlment-theory"Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10481950746269507652010-03-24T20:22:07.638-04:002010-03-24T20:22:07.638-04:00Taken from a newsvine post, b/c the term Ad homine...Taken from a newsvine post, b/c the term Ad hominem has become so overused in the J-blogosphere...<br /><br />Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-35823398623946714442010-03-24T16:57:25.185-04:002010-03-24T16:57:25.185-04:00RAM: It is neither your nor my business what B&...RAM: It is neither your nor my business what B&H's halachic viewpoint is. That is between the proprietors of B&H and their religious authorities. (That being said, there is very good reason to believe their male/female employment policies are made with the input of their halachic advisors.)<br /><br />The private lawsuit against B&H alleges their policy violates secular law. So that is the question at hand.Aaron S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-29350463847271579782010-03-24T15:45:54.737-04:002010-03-24T15:45:54.737-04:00Because B&H's concerns appear to have been...Because B&H's concerns appear to have been based on their halachic viewpoint alone. In a secular view, there is no gender-related issue of who is best suited to sell cameras, etc.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-38480486130457376642010-03-24T14:31:36.334-04:002010-03-24T14:31:36.334-04:00RAM, Why bring halacha into this? The argument bei...RAM, Why bring halacha into this? The argument being made against B&H is based on secular law not halacha.Aaron S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-3238740978722225452010-03-24T14:21:42.869-04:002010-03-24T14:21:42.869-04:00Aaron S.,
When a woman walks into a store like B&...Aaron S.,<br /><br />When a woman walks into a store like B&H to buy a camera or other equipment, which is more halachically desirable as you see it:<br /><br />1. A salesman greets her and tries to sell equipment.<br /><br />2. A saleswoman greets her and tries to sell equipment.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-86730707015388177932010-03-24T12:32:43.622-04:002010-03-24T12:32:43.622-04:00I don't know that you are correct with regard ...<i>I don't know that you are correct with regard to a sheitel store. To be fair, however, I don't know that you're incorrect either. Can you please provide the relevant ruling or case?</i><br /><br />What reason would you propose that the law, as written in the U.S. Code (as opposed to how you feel it should be viewed), would differentiate between a shaitel store and an electronic store? The law is generic and makes no such distinctions.<br /><br />And forget just shaitel stores. Any frum woman clothing stores. The salesman or saleswoman doesn't see the person undressed. They do that in the privacy of the dressing room. And some of these stores easily have 5 or more employees. Should they too be required to hire (on an equal basis) male salesmen to sell women's clothing?<br /><br />Or thing women's shoes; Manicures; etc.<br /><br />Think secular law, not halacha.<br /><br />Where do you draw the line?<br /><br />Why should the line be drawn where you want, rather than where B&H thinks.Aaron S.noreply@blogger.com