tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post5281342319700031171..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Marriage And More Nonsense About Last NamesBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12136583885599467152009-01-02T13:24:00.000-05:002009-01-02T13:24:00.000-05:00This is something I feel strongly about, and think...This is something I feel strongly about, and think it is symbolically important.<BR><BR/>However, I've wondered how hyphenated names would work farther down the generations: 2 children with hyphenated names getting marriedd would end up with 4-part surnames and each generation would make it worse.<BR/>Instead - How about each parent/partner keeps their <I>original</I> last name, and the couple add a <I>new hyphenated portion</I> to the end, chosen as a symbol of their commitment, or new family. <BR/><BR/>BUT, importantly, the children of that couple <I>only</I> take on the new portion. Then, if this method was popularly adopted, people being married would start with one name and follow the process that their parents employed?<BR/><BR/>(as suggested by aaron, adopting the surname of the breadwinner just wouldn't work. In these unstable times the main breadwinner is less likely to remain the same throughout the relationship).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-3940520524959568802008-08-09T23:33:00.000-04:002008-08-09T23:33:00.000-04:00Very well said!Here (Israel) a fair number of peop...Very well said!<BR/><BR/>Here (Israel) a fair number of people I have met have taken on a new, combined last name on marriage. Of course, we also have that history of changing our last names in general....Gilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246089571573457394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-58488191058565860012008-08-08T19:43:00.000-04:002008-08-08T19:43:00.000-04:00wow. great fisking.wow. great fisking.Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-86480300954166039492008-08-08T18:22:00.000-04:002008-08-08T18:22:00.000-04:00MIKE S:thank you!i originally wrote my post on thi...MIKE S:<BR/><BR/>thank you!<BR/>i originally wrote my post on this matter with the maharsha in mind, but i couldn't remember his name. i've updated it.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://agmk.blogspot.com/2008/08/whe-husband-takes-his-wifes-maiden-name.html" REL="nofollow"><BR/> When A Husband Takes His Wife's Maiden Name<BR/></A><BR/><BR/>shabbat shalom and have an easy fastLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-34190825257557303712008-08-08T15:20:00.000-04:002008-08-08T15:20:00.000-04:00By the way, Maharsh"a is known as R. Shmuel Elieze...By the way, Maharsh"a is known as R. Shmuel Eliezer Eidels. Eidel being his wife, who supported him after her father passed on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-13016206908801797522008-08-08T15:17:00.000-04:002008-08-08T15:17:00.000-04:000) Talk of losing sight of the forest for the tree...0) Talk of losing sight of the forest for the trees!<BR/><BR/>1) If there is a causal relationship, which I doubt, I suspect it goes the other way. That is, if divorce rates are high, women will be more reluctant to accept the hassle of changing a name upon marriage.<BR/><BR/>2) We should always look to halacha for guidance. In religious prayers and documents, we refer to a married woman (or man) by the same patronymic (and matronymic, where applicable) they have borne since birth. <BR/><BR/>3) Although we do derive some halachot of kiddushin from a g'zerah shaveh with Avraham's purchase of ma'arat hamachpelah, the gemarrah is very clear that kiddushin is not a purchase.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-17955404814528578642008-08-08T15:11:00.000-04:002008-08-08T15:11:00.000-04:00Sorry about my post's original title, which was un...Sorry about my post's original title, which was unclear enough that I must have changed it 3 or 4 time since the link was published. The current version is "Orthodox husband opposes idea that wives are property." I want to make it clear to your readers that I support this post.<BR/><BR/>Concerning Mark/PT's and ProfK comments that surnames are "goyish," that's exactly why I insist that calling a married woman Mrs. Husband's-First-Name is against Jewish tradition and an insult to a married woman's parents. Ashkenazi Jews traditionally name their children after deceased relatives, Sefardim Jews after living relatives. By calling me by my husband first's name, you rob my parents of their time-honored right to name their own child in honor of their own relative.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I have no objections to being called me by my husband's last name, but anyone who calls me by my husband's first name is gonna get such a lecture that their ears will hurt. For openers, it's an insult to Jewish tradition, and, for closers, it's an insult to me personally. Getting married did *not* make me cease to exist as a separate human being. And the notion that I'm my husband's property--or anyone else's--is beneath contempt.<BR/><BR/>Wolf, thank you for writing this post.Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10913780258744938962008-08-08T02:09:00.000-04:002008-08-08T02:09:00.000-04:00"...in other circles, the reason for deteriorating...<I>"...in other circles, the reason for deteriorating marriages, climbing divorce rates and the current shidduch crisis, is greatly due to the fact that the girls today are much more educated, knowledgeable and capable than the boys are. More than often times the bread-winner in the young family is the wife."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know which "other circles" he means, but in most Israeli Haredi circles, the women are expected to be both primary breadwinners <I>and</I> primary house-keepers, while the husbands hang out in yeshiva all day. I can a imagine a situation in which this set-up would be the cause of many more divorces, were divorce socially acceptable in those circles.<BR/><BR/>ALNA Living Nadneydahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14365370597831368062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-25491014582299838442008-08-08T01:48:00.000-04:002008-08-08T01:48:00.000-04:00WOLF:for someone who seems to be so busy you seem ...WOLF:<BR/><BR/>for someone who seems to be so busy you seem to waste a lot of time reading these nonsense sites.<BR/><BR/>i just wanted to point out 2 things<BR/><BR/>1) there have been cases in history when the man actually takes on the name of his wife's family. even r. shmuel salant. my post deals with this:<BR/><A HREF="http://agmk.blogspot.com/2008/08/whe-husband-takes-his-wifes-maiden-name.html" REL="nofollow"><BR/>Click here for more</A><BR/><BR/>2) there are women (including chabadniks) who keep their maiden names because of the fact that they don't have civil marriages altogether (which is illegal in NYS) in order to collect foodstamps, etc.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-5603068799366663032008-08-08T00:35:00.000-04:002008-08-08T00:35:00.000-04:00I think I came across this rabbi's logic in gradua...<B>I think I came across this rabbi's logic in graduate school when we were learning about psychosis. It was called praedicate thinking, the best example being a syllogism. "A chair has legs; I have legs: Therefore, I am a chair."</B><BR/><BR/>I've always suspected that the Kollel version of this is:<BR/>My Father in law is rich, therefore fathers in law are rich, therefore when I am a father in law I will be rich.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Somehow It doesn't work quite like thatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-79791660955003481202008-08-07T20:44:00.000-04:002008-08-07T20:44:00.000-04:00I think I came across this rabbi's logic in gradua...I think I came across this rabbi's logic in graduate school when we were learning about psychosis. It was called praedicate thinking, the best example being a syllogism. "A chair has legs; I have legs: Therefore, I am a chair."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-72968652541971459932008-08-07T19:45:00.000-04:002008-08-07T19:45:00.000-04:00As for Imeinu and Avinu as last names - our foremo...As for Imeinu and Avinu as last names - our foremothers and forefathers were Romanian?<BR/>:-)Critically Observant Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17281220943536673356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-54352920362335033352008-08-07T18:59:00.000-04:002008-08-07T18:59:00.000-04:00How's this for an idea?... Let the last name of t...How's this for an idea?... Let the last name of the family be that of the breadwinner!(admittedly unpopular in the kolel world)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-75935691794284956702008-08-07T17:26:00.000-04:002008-08-07T17:26:00.000-04:00COJ,I'm a database developer by trade. :) That w...COJ,<BR/><BR/>I'm a database developer by trade. :) <BR/>That was very funny!<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12201436087809641242008-08-07T17:25:00.000-04:002008-08-07T17:25:00.000-04:00What about women who don't change their names due ...What about women who don't change their names due to immigration reasons - so that USCIS (formerly known as INS) wouldn't mess up their files?<BR/><BR/>As for hyphenated names, I don't think we'd like that - our name would be 20 characters long with a hyphen!<BR/><BR/>For people who know SQL: check <A HREF="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exploits_of_a_mom.png" REL="nofollow">this cartoon out</A>Critically Observant Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17281220943536673356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-32246033452233062008-08-07T16:36:00.000-04:002008-08-07T16:36:00.000-04:00I heard what bj said, that the names were imposed ...I heard what bj said, that the names were imposed upon Jews against their will. I heard that the Maharam Schik took his name because it's rashei teivos for Shem Yisrael Kodesh -- actually refuting the nonJewish name.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-19086015851133836672008-08-07T16:25:00.000-04:002008-08-07T16:25:00.000-04:00Laughing.Too.Hard.Laughing.Too.Hard.SaraKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08053908720926177402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-62995780354536380402008-08-07T16:22:00.000-04:002008-08-07T16:22:00.000-04:00Quebec isn't the only place where women retain the...Quebec isn't the only place where women retain their birth surname on marriage. In much of Asia, a wife keeps her father's surname. Traditionally, in Scotland, a wife also kept her maiden name (which is why genealogy tends to be easier there than in England, where she took her husband's names, at least until the practice of taking the husband's name on marriage became prevalent in the mid/late 1800s).<BR/><BR/>Of course, the other interesting bit is that hereditary surnames are actually a recent innovation in Jewish history -- and they were generally imposed from the outside, often less than voluntarily. Also, I find the fact that the people making the 'must take husbnad's name for a strong marriage' argument are the most likely to see their 'real' marriage licence as their ketubah (surnames not in evidence there, IIRC) and use Ploni ben Ploni (no surname there, either....) when called to the Torah.....In fact, one could just as easily argue that using hereditary surnames is a goyish custom and should be rejected by all good Jews ;-) After all, Iceland manages to do without them....BJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03533424387698710991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-18542743454417067042008-08-07T16:19:00.001-04:002008-08-07T16:19:00.001-04:00The custom of surnames is a fairly recent one hist...The custom of surnames is a fairly recent one historically and is not in full use even today in some cultures. Latino cultures have long had the custom of hyphenating and using the mother's maiden name. Some cultures, the Chinese for instance, use clan names rather than individual surnames.<BR/><BR/>But for frum Jews the use of the last name is irrelevant anyway. It is an outside identification mark rather than a Jewish one. Interesting note: even upon marriage a woman does not change her Hebrew name--she still remains Leah bas Mechel, arguing against any type of "ownership." Were she owned (and it pains me to even write that phrase) she would be known as Leah the wife of Baruch.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-52569147253048138612008-08-07T16:19:00.000-04:002008-08-07T16:19:00.000-04:00......ery'knowwords just fail me on this one.I was......<BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>er<BR/><BR/>y'know<BR/><BR/>words just fail me on this one.<BR/><BR/>I was in semi-blog retirement, just reading your posts without much commenting, but this one is bringing me out. I feel like Michael Corleone here.<BR/><BR/>Aside from all the points you make, I mean, isn't the whole concept of the "surname" a goyish conceit to begin with? Are there surnames in Tanach or Talmud?<BR/><BR/>Didn't women go by Sarah bas Haran or whatever, anyway, even after they were married???<BR/><BR/>Is this Purim shtick?PsychoToddlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00874353280798371891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-44683558390022059742008-08-07T16:07:00.000-04:002008-08-07T16:07:00.000-04:00waste-of-timewaste-of-timeGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.com