tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post6555175690854335836..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Ten Proofs That Moshiach Is Coming Next Year -- NOT!BrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-77306862353824491032008-11-18T16:15:00.000-05:002008-11-18T16:15:00.000-05:00Wow. Great post. I'm fortunate in that I don't get...Wow. Great post. I'm fortunate in that I don't get e-mails like these, since I'm not frum enough. Though beyond the awful logic, I find it hard to take any e-mail seriously if it is full of spelling and grammar errors. (Actually, this goes for pretty much anything written.)<BR/><BR/>Maybe you should be the one to start a Jewish Snopes.Knitter of shiny thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495339297497300925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-77011210601329603722008-11-14T13:56:00.000-05:002008-11-14T13:56:00.000-05:00Sorry, thought you said day, not year. This is the...Sorry, thought you said day, not year. This is the risk of skimming :PEzziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-36637926933285519902008-11-14T01:52:00.000-05:002008-11-14T01:52:00.000-05:00I just want to know why how so many frum people go...I just want to know why how so many frum people got a heter to use the internet that they now have frum forwards.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-57534413616828582412008-11-14T01:39:00.000-05:002008-11-14T01:39:00.000-05:00There is a Jewish version of Snopes, though in my ...There <I>is</I> a Jewish version of Snopes, though in my opinion it isn't that good:<BR/><BR/>http://www.jewishlegends.com/Kylopodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06932528611103718373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-9706606443343377082008-11-13T12:24:00.000-05:002008-11-13T12:24:00.000-05:00There are people in Chicago who believe that Moshi...There are people in Chicago who believe that Moshiach will come in the year the Cubs win the world series. It may be a long wait, but this belief seems as vlid as any other and perhaps just as foolish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12663087283774619102008-11-13T11:53:00.000-05:002008-11-13T11:53:00.000-05:00before reading the post...I got that e-mail too, a...before reading the post...I got that e-mail too, and that's funny about the idea of a Jewish Snopes. Great idea.Jewish Side of Babysitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15792110478994916775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-65446621860774862942008-11-13T09:29:00.000-05:002008-11-13T09:29:00.000-05:00This whole thing is ridiculous, because Moshiach H...This whole thing is ridiculous, because Moshiach HIMSELF came to me in a dream and said he wouldn't come until all the loonies stop making demands of him!<BR/><BR/>Yossi G.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-70756150622909735012008-11-13T03:35:00.000-05:002008-11-13T03:35:00.000-05:00the only real question is whether the mashiach wil...the only real question is whether the mashiach will come before the telephone repair man?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-36273145736039498732008-11-13T01:49:00.000-05:002008-11-13T01:49:00.000-05:00"Shouldn't we look at outlandish claims skepticall..."Shouldn't we look at outlandish claims skeptically?"<BR/><BR/>Might that be a problem for Bircas Hachama?<BR/><BR/>Ichabod ChrainAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-15790060192301291662008-11-13T00:15:00.000-05:002008-11-13T00:15:00.000-05:00The first proof was the best. But you proved it wr...The first proof was the best. But you proved it wrong real well.<BR/><BR/>also I have written a post about how a Obama and moshich go hand in hand. I dont believe it.Mikeinmidwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076346601047947913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-7222890295965851652008-11-13T00:01:00.000-05:002008-11-13T00:01:00.000-05:00"HKBH promised Noach that He would never cause a g..."HKBH promised Noach that He would never cause a global flood that wiped out all life. There were no promises regarding local floods, even massive ones."<BR/><BR/>So was the mabul global then. :)Yirmiahuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04967448425332780399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12692187759742789082008-11-12T18:32:00.000-05:002008-11-12T18:32:00.000-05:00Chazal say that moshiach will come the year after ...Chazal say that moshiach will come the year after shemita. Of course it doesnt have to be this particular year after shemita. Another reason is that next year is 5770. 770, get it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-38970124580927775912008-11-12T16:41:00.000-05:002008-11-12T16:41:00.000-05:00Wolf - what I think they are saying by flood predi...Wolf - what I think they are saying by flood prediction, is that coming of Mashiach will stop global warming and ice melting.<BR/><BR/>What do you think about end-of-world in 2012? There are scientists with comet, Incas, Lubaviche Rebbe and a few other sources which predict EOW2012. There are whole books written on the subject. How do you think masses will react when clock strikes 2013 and nothing happened?mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-91581892912858009312008-11-12T16:20:00.000-05:002008-11-12T16:20:00.000-05:00Anonymous, I think you missed my point completely....Anonymous, I think you missed my point completely.<BR/><BR/>In 1648, the Jewish world (and for that matter, the Christian world) was convinced that the Messiah was at hand.<BR/><BR/>For the Jews, that widespread belief led to Sabbatai Tzvi.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-73440387421232913042008-11-12T16:19:00.000-05:002008-11-12T16:19:00.000-05:00Thanks for the clarification, Anon. But what it s...Thanks for the clarification, Anon. But what it still boils down to is that you're saying "for the sake of social acceptance, turn off your brain."<BR/><BR/>Keep in mind, however, that at no point did I refute the idea that Moshiach is coming. Indeed, I made the point that not only do I believe he is coming, I even hope he comes now and proves me wrong -- but the idea that Moshiach *is* coming isn't what I argued against - I simply argued against shoddy reasoning.<BR/><BR/>I actually did something a few years ago <A HREF="http://wolfishmusings.blogspot.com/2005/06/on-more-bad-reasoning-and-bad-proofs.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> with regard to various "proofs" that the Torah is true. To make a long story short, I found every single proof in that post to be lacking. That doesn't mean that I don't believe the Torah is Divinely given. It simply means that the factuality of the Torah's divinity does not rest of fall on flawed proofs. Even if I show the proof to be false, that doesn't affect the underlying claim. It simply affects the proof itself.<BR/><BR/>IMHO, there is nothing wrong with calling out a flawed "proof" of anything. If someone believes that Moshiach is going to come because Birkas HaChamah is going to be recited on the first day of Pesach, then they are simply being foolish, especially when the proof is very easily demonstrated to be false. <BR/><BR/>Assuming that they have basic common sense, their emunah shouldn't be destroyed because someone pointed out a flaw in a "proof."<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-70510582848660387932008-11-12T16:02:00.000-05:002008-11-12T16:02:00.000-05:00Well then you're not disagreeing with me. My poin...Well then you're not disagreeing with me. My point isn't that critical thinking is bad, but that in a world where being part of the community requires belief in things that do not stand up to critical thinking, critical thinking is not harmless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-29252801523165400442008-11-12T15:58:00.000-05:002008-11-12T15:58:00.000-05:00Wow. My brain hurts a little from having read tha...Wow. My brain hurts a little from having read that email. Re: #7, I sense a stira--doesn't Obama want to slow down environmental damage? Hmm...<BR/><BR/>"anonymous said...<BR/>What I mean is that if you get into the habit of applying skeptical thinking to Jewish ideas you don't know where it will end. The people who forward that email around are not at risk of ever losing their emunah..."<BR/><BR/>For one thing, I'm not sure about that. What if they really believe all these "proofs" and are then horribly let down if mashiach does not come next year? Same for if they take literally statements in the Gemara that are not meant literally and are let down in real life. What about when they give their money to the tzedaka pamphlets (to go unnamed for now) that promise miracles and special protection from God, and then receive none? <BR/><BR/>In essence, you seem to be defending intellectual dishonesty in the name of securing faith. Personally, I can't really swallow that--isn't God's seal truth? --but even if you do, I think it ends up getting back to you and falling apart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-75414953697987321522008-11-12T15:52:00.000-05:002008-11-12T15:52:00.000-05:00Anon,I guess we just have a difference of opinion ...Anon,<BR/><BR/>I guess we just have a difference of opinion then. I think that critical thinking is a valuable skill. I believe that HKBH gave us brains in order to use them, not to simply shut them off.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-82177921023483687852008-11-12T15:48:00.000-05:002008-11-12T15:48:00.000-05:00Of course you shouldn't accept it, but you should ...Of course you shouldn't accept it, but you should also be aware of what promoting critical thinking can lead to.<BR/><BR/>There's no good answer. You can't reliably expect people to wield skepticism selectively, not can you expect them to be selectively unskeptical. The frum world clearly chose unskeptical, and that's why frum magazines are full of snake oil fake medicine nonsense, snopes-like email forwards, etc. You can't get people to believe in a talking snake and a splitting sea but not other silly things, but that result was more desirable than not believing any silly things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-50481775839810463182008-11-12T15:40:00.000-05:002008-11-12T15:40:00.000-05:00Anon,Shouldn't we look at outlandish claims skepti...Anon,<BR/><BR/>Shouldn't we look at outlandish claims skeptically? If someone touts the idea that the stock market tanking is a sign of Moshiach's imminent arrival, should I just ignore the common sense that tells me that one likely has nothing to do with the other? <BR/><BR/>When someone suggests that the Chofetz Chaim came to someone in a dream (a claim that is unverifiable), I should simply accept it as proof of Moshiach's immenent arrival without a second thought? <BR/><BR/>If someone passes around factually incorrect information about Birkas HaChammah, should I just shut my mouth and pretend that it is, in fact, accurate?<BR/><BR/>In other words, do I have to just accept everything that someone sends in an email simply because to refute it (even where are legitimate grounds to do so) *might* destroy someone's emunah?<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-65336501623337863892008-11-12T15:34:00.000-05:002008-11-12T15:34:00.000-05:00until Jan 1, 2010, when they realize that this tim...until Jan 1, 2010, when they realize that this time too, their beliefs have been crushed.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-73477200070353437132008-11-12T15:33:00.000-05:002008-11-12T15:33:00.000-05:00What I mean is that if you get into the habit of a...What I mean is that if you get into the habit of applying skeptical thinking to Jewish ideas you don't know where it will end. The people who forward that email around are not at risk of ever losing their emunah...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-84335278461027211472008-11-12T14:58:00.000-05:002008-11-12T14:58:00.000-05:00Well if we are peddling predictions my cousin has ...Well if we are peddling predictions my cousin has been saying loudly for years that Moshiach would arrive before he would let one of his kids marry an out of towner and leave NY. The wedding is in December and the couple will be living in the Midwest, so I guess we will be seeing Moshiach before December.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-26879870577002982572008-11-12T14:35:00.000-05:002008-11-12T14:35:00.000-05:00skepticism isn't nearly as dangerous as erroneous ...skepticism isn't nearly as dangerous as erroneous mystical beliefs.<BR/>(pardon my post from 2 minutes ago. Brain was asleep when I hit publish)Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-49384319464096449692008-11-12T14:33:00.001-05:002008-11-12T14:33:00.001-05:00Anon,In what way is it dangerous? Please elaborat...Anon,<BR/><BR/>In what way is it dangerous? Please elaborate.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.com