tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post7397967423651942155..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Standards, Expectations and Unconditional Love -- What's the Right Mix?BrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-30916884789935398032007-03-09T17:27:00.000-05:002007-03-09T17:27:00.000-05:00>One of the main points that Ms. Margolese makes e...>One of the main points that Ms. Margolese makes early in the book is that people leave observant Judaism not because of intellectual issues (Science/Torah and the like), but primarily because of emotional issues. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Not to take away from the desirability of having a loving home, the conclusion is simply not true.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Yours truly, <BR/>A beloved, emotionally stable, Baal Habos<BR/>ABaal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-42397426759444092202007-03-03T17:13:00.000-05:002007-03-03T17:13:00.000-05:00First and foremost, parents need to teach by examp...First and foremost, parents need to teach by example. If parents sing birkat hamazon at every meal and act like it's an enjoyable thing, kids will take it on. If it looks like the parents are dying to get it over with, chances are, the kids will drop the ball as soon as they can get away with it.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, the thing that made me closest to going off the derech was a parent playing the holiness card - "I'm religious, and therefore you have to do what I say and I'm wonderful" while said parent did some things that I think are incorrect for a parent to do.<BR/><BR/>If you give your children love and you share yiddishkeit with them as something that you love and treasure, then you're moving in the right direction. It's not a guarantee, but if you don't love yiddishkeit and you don't make your children feel that they are sharing something valuable, you've already lost.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-91419101138503813742007-02-20T18:27:00.000-05:002007-02-20T18:27:00.000-05:00I haven't read this book yet and really need to. I...I haven't read this book yet and really need to. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you that we absolutely need to set standards in our homes. But I don't think that it excludes showing unconditional love. <BR/><BR/>MomInIsrael makes a very good point about building a relationship. I think that this is so important because parents are going to overreact at times and say hurtful things, etc. But when that relationship is strong it should be easier to recover lost ground (at least that is my experience as an imperfect parent).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-28657619652886715552007-02-16T03:41:00.000-05:002007-02-16T03:41:00.000-05:00I think that many parents today don't know how to ...I think that many parents today don't know how to form a strong, positive, emotional connection with their children. From their early childhood we distance ourselves from our children and we focus so much on their behavior and "education," instead of just enjoying being with them. We expect way too much of them way too young, especially with the oldest, and constantly worry about them doing anything that doesn't conform to our hopes for them as adults. We need to let them be little, play with them, and treat them as we would want to be treated (i.e. trust them, not talk down to them, not harangue and threaten them). Too much to put in one comment I know. But they will respect us more and follow our example if we respect them, and as a society, we don't.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-86370346667618277932007-02-15T18:20:00.000-05:002007-02-15T18:20:00.000-05:00I've read large portions of the book, including th...I've read large portions of the book, including the section you mentioned. I've also had thoughts of leaving the fold cross my mind as well. Right now I consider myself frum, although on a personal level- there are things I believe right now and do/don't do right now (outside the Big Three) which maybe are not completely congruent with normative frumkeit.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is, you can't enforce religious adherence. You can only set example. The girl in the book who didn't daven likely felt it was meaningless to her. Maybe she saw her father talking in shul. Or saw others talking, or saw her father just mumbling the tefillah distractedly, without any feeling. So she thinks, why do I need this?<BR/><BR/>In any event, the davening aspect for her was just a symptom. This girl ultimately went off the derech for reasons other than her father haranguing her about davening.<BR/><BR/>Again, the bottom line is, kids take their cues from their parents. If they ense their parents are being hypocrtical and disingenuous about their own observance, the kids' doesn't stand a chance.Nice Jewish Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08143569412761938449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-62906347476181880802007-02-14T21:31:00.000-05:002007-02-14T21:31:00.000-05:00Your post really made me think.About my own strugg...Your post really made me think.<BR/><BR/>About my own struggles to want to stay frum. About my concerns for my children and how I would react if they chose not to be frum. And the relationship I have with a close relative who recently gave up observance. And with relatives who are not religious though are coming closer through their own version of observance. <BR/><BR/>The subject is fraught with confusion. I imagine yeshivish and chassidish people grapple with and are exposed to these issues significantly less often than regular middle of the road jews and modern orthodox jews.<BR/><BR/>So I wonder which way of life is better and more authentic.<BR/><BR/>I struggle with this question because I dismiss the uniformity, mindlessness, and lack of rational direction tyoical of the chareidi lifestyle.<BR/><BR/>Yet, I recognize that these populations, despite a propensity to close-mindedness and open denial of the texture of the Jewish universe, most likely take for granted that their children and relatives, for the most part, will be and remain orthodox.<BR/><BR/>Am I to assume that positioning oneself to attain near certainty that one's children will remain frum is worth sacrificing my sense of individuality and aceptance of a wider community of Jews? Do I do so at risk of my children's future as religious Jews? <BR/><BR/>Complicated stuff. I must read this book.and so it shall be...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14938399154970068213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10686168836313925492007-02-14T11:05:00.000-05:002007-02-14T11:05:00.000-05:00Ezzie,Yes, I did get that feeling. I, too, have ...Ezzie,<BR/><BR/>Yes, I did get that feeling. I, too, have nearly "left the fold" on more than one occassion and many of the reasons she identified resonated within me as well as I remembered the soul-searching that I went through at those times.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-55393200184458996872007-02-14T10:25:00.000-05:002007-02-14T10:25:00.000-05:00Mn,Well, to some degree, it *is* bein adam l'makom...Mn,<BR/><BR/><BR/>Well, to some degree, it *is* bein adam l'makom. But it was just a throw-away joke line to inject some humor. Don't analyze it too much.<BR/><BR/>Beverly,<BR/><BR/>I don't know specifically. I would suppose it would depend on *why* she's not davening. If it's because she doesn't find it meaningful (something that I've felt at various points in my life), then you should try to find a way to make it meaningful for her. It's not going to happen overnight, of course, but over the long haul, if you show people that a behavior is in their own best interest, they will attempt to engage in that behavior.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-90094905052799105162007-02-14T00:24:00.000-05:002007-02-14T00:24:00.000-05:00It's an amazing book. I started reading it on Yom ...It's an amazing book. I started reading it on Yom Kippur and had half of it read during the Avodah and break.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, you could write a post from almost every page in there. :)<BR/><BR/>As I was reading it - and I'm curious if you experienced this - I kept thinking "that's me", "that's my friend -----", "that's me", "that's -----". I can see why I once came close to saying "BYE!", and I can see why I actually didn't, from the book. It's not huge chiddushim - just sums it all up very nicely.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-60147180847538075722007-02-13T21:40:00.000-05:002007-02-13T21:40:00.000-05:00And so, what does one say to a daughter who is not...And so, what does one say to a daughter who is not particularly interested in davening?beverlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01172252672520984642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-48234097907340036202007-02-13T20:48:00.000-05:002007-02-13T20:48:00.000-05:00...we also set standards for behavior in the realm...<I>...we also set standards for behavior in the realm of bein adam lamakom (relationships between man and God). When my children are older, they will have to know, for example, that I will not allow them to bring chametz into the house on Pesach. They will know that I expect them to daven and learn every day. <B>I expect him not to sacrifice his little sister to Molech.</B></I><BR/><BR/>Not sacrificing his sister to Molech is bein adam lamokom?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com