tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post8635770882774750253..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Poor ArgumentsBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-70750934598275408972010-10-14T19:58:22.251-04:002010-10-14T19:58:22.251-04:00"it's utterly absurd to think that anyone..."it's utterly absurd to think that anyone could have been capable of pulling the wool over the eyes of such intellectual and spiritual giants as the Ramcha"l, the Vilna Gaon, Rebbe Chaim Volozhiner, Rebbe Nachman of Breslev or the Chofetz Chaim."<br /><br />That's actually circular reasonning: if those great talmidey chachamim had come to the conclusion it was not true and voiced this opinion, Mr. Brody would not refer to them as Talmidey chachamim today. <br /><br />Actually, I am sure that there were people of similar caliber who would not be fooled. They are outcasts now. Perhaps they made their way in a different realm, but certainly not within orthodox judaism...sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-30853089579553906352010-10-14T17:38:19.574-04:002010-10-14T17:38:19.574-04:00everyone of my relatives who raised their children...everyone of my relatives who raised their children not religious and without a solid yeshiva education has intermarried or married someone so disconnected from judaism that they are all lost. their parents also said you have to only marry jews and even threatened to cut them off from the inheritance. <br />unfortunately none of it worked. <br />very sad. the only way to maintain jewish identity is to practice itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-41686316622910150012010-10-13T02:17:19.415-04:002010-10-13T02:17:19.415-04:00I'm not entirely sure, but in response to the ...I'm not entirely sure, but in response to the problem of millions of korbanot brought in the desert, with only 25 kohanim to service the people, don't Chazal say that many korbanot weren't actually brought in the desert?<br /><br />Has anyone researched this who can help me out?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-87926835597349700102010-10-12T18:17:26.608-04:002010-10-12T18:17:26.608-04:00>It's utterly absurd to think that anyone c...>It's utterly absurd to think that anyone could have been capable of pulling the wool over the eyes of such intellectual and spiritual giants as the Ramcha"l, the Vilna Gaon, Rebbe Chaim Volozhiner, Rebbe Nachman of Breslev or the Chofetz Chaim. <br /><br />What to make of the fact that his list includes people born between 1707 and 1838? Is that how old the mesorah is? It's almost like he's unwittingly attributed Orthodox Judaism to more or less the people and the time period that the reshoim secular scholars attribute the rise of Orthodoxy.<br /><br />As for pulling the wool, gosh, the Ramchal confused his own brilliance with heavenly revelations. So, you know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-8835340372461998032010-10-11T22:39:08.439-04:002010-10-11T22:39:08.439-04:00Wolf,
I like your blog.
Philosopher David Hume a...Wolf,<br /><br />I like your blog.<br /><br />Philosopher David Hume asks a good question about biblical miracles such as matan torah:<br /><br />Which is more miraculous:<br /><br />That the the claims of the Torah are true, or that the claims are not true? <br /><br />In his view, if it were more miraculous (because of a preponderance of evidence) that the claims of the Torah were not true, then one could be expected to believe them, and be rewarded or punished accordingly.<br /><br />What I'm getting at is, if there isn't much evidence, but plenty to the contrary, then why believe?<br /><br />(Note I'm asking specifically about the Torah, not whether or not God exists)<br /><br />GeoffGeoffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-53723176181322236112010-10-11T15:31:40.994-04:002010-10-11T15:31:40.994-04:00The Kuzari logic is very shaky these days. A "...The Kuzari logic is very shaky these days. A "kol korei" these days could successfully get a large segment of Jews to do or say pretty much anything. Of course any dissenters would be written off as koifrim and ignored. In a few hundred years, the divide between the "followers" and the "koifrim" would be complete and no connection would be remembered. Additionally, the "koifrim" wouldn't even care anymore about the radical group they split off of and wouldn't bother refuting their claims.<br /><br />(Of course I realize that in today's age the internet will record everything for posterity, but there was no internet in those days).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-23327776270904107662010-10-10T02:30:08.966-04:002010-10-10T02:30:08.966-04:00How could you show if you don't practice it an...How could you show if you don't practice it and you don't live it?mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-26447621386854871372010-10-08T09:49:47.257-04:002010-10-08T09:49:47.257-04:00mlevin: Basically you are making the guilt argume...mlevin: Basically you are making the guilt argument. Our ancestors suffered for their religion, so it would be disrespectful to them not to follow their ways. Guilt and revenge are not enough to keep a culture alive and vibrant through the generations. The best tactic is love and goodness. Either show the next generation that the frum life and community are good and loving and bring them up to love judaism and be proud of their heritage and you are giving a gift. Teaching/preaching guilt and revenge is laying a burden on them that can only lead to resentment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-91315486131329774582010-10-08T09:13:18.444-04:002010-10-08T09:13:18.444-04:00mlevin: The "look they tried to kill us, let&...mlevin: The "look they tried to kill us, let's be observant to prove they were wrong and get even" argument doesn't work for another reason. Hitler wanted to get rid of the jews to keep the "aryan race" pure and avoid contamination by contact with jews. Therefore, isn't the best way to get even and have the last laugh is to have lots of intermarriage and intermingling so that the blood lines get really mixed together?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-26323948565417176662010-10-08T02:32:03.561-04:002010-10-08T02:32:03.561-04:00MLevin,
what you are saying makes little sense. ...MLevin,<br /><br />what you are saying makes little sense. All the Jewish holidays revolve around events that took place during either Matan Torah, leaving Egyptian slavery or living in the Desert. If you don't believe that these events took place (believe, not have 100% proof), why celebrate holidays? Why commemorate things that are either Jewish folk tales, someone's fantasy or outright lies? Especially if celebration involves burdening oneself with numerous laws and restrictions? Just out of spite for goyim? that's just juvenile and somewhat sick, not to mention a poisonous and miserable outlook on life.<br /><br />And I am sure when it's 100 degrees outside and you are sweating because you forgot to turn the air conditioner before shabbos, or chew pretzels from a paper plate during the office party - yeah, you showed them, you won, that's exactly how those bad bad goyim see this. <br /><br />Seriously, many of them don't even give it a thought.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-26708112833205566342010-10-08T02:19:59.771-04:002010-10-08T02:19:59.771-04:00"...the money he saves by buying non-kosher f..."...the money he saves by buying non-kosher food to the Friends of the IDF."<br /><br />won't work, because if you don't practice it, you forget it and your children will never know what it is. <br /><br />Here's an example:My husband has a relative who calls every now and than and complains that his son is seeing yet another shiksa. The same son had lived with a few and was even engaged to one. He wants advise on what to do and how to make the son understand. <br /><br />My husband tells him to take the son to the sinagogue, have him see how Jews pray, let him sit for a shiur, let him experience a shabbos meal, these types of things. But the relative is adamant against it. "I can't do that" he persists "If I do that he may end up religious and start observing holidays and shabbos and kashurus." "So, how are you trying to stop him from intermarriage?" "I call him, and my mother calls him, and his mother calls him and we try to explain to him that Jews have to marry only Jews." <br /><br />Do you what is happening? By not observing we are losing our Judaism, losing our understanding of who we are. That is why all Jews need to be observant, else the whole concept of a Jew becomes meaningless to them.<br /><br />"The reason for a Jew keeping the Mitzvos is that there was a covenant."<br /><br />That logic only works if one believes in God and as we discussed above you can't make someone believe or disbelieve anything.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-63768357822873034102010-10-08T01:47:51.813-04:002010-10-08T01:47:51.813-04:00mlevin,
The problem is that your logic isn't ...mlevin,<br /><br />The problem is that your logic isn't logic. It's an emotional appeal. <br /><br />By your logic, one doesn't have to keep the mitzvos. He can work on Sbabbos and buy non-kosher food. He can then send a check for the money he earns by working on Shabbos and the money he saves by buying non-kosher food to the Friends of the IDF. That will show the persecutors we're still here. It will do so better than keeping Shabbos and kashrut.<br /><br />Besides, the persecutors from previous generations are mostly dead. Now we have Charedim to worry about. They're the ones who are shifting mainstream Orthodoxy to what I consider to be the wrong direction. If I was going to use religious practices to show someone something, I would want to show them that they can't get away with some of the things they pull. <br /><br />As for the persecutors of the past, why let them be the ones who control what your religious practices are. They don't win if you don't keep Shabbos or keep kosher. They win if you let them govern what you do. <br /><br />Besides, as I said before, Jews weren't being persecuted for generations for being frum. They were persecuted for different reasons. Hitler didn't care if you kept Shabbos or kept kosher. He persecuted Reform Jews as much as frum Jews. <br /> <br />The reason for a Jew keeping the Mitzvos is that there was a covenant. If Jews have been persecuted for all these generations, then the issue is whether we're getting what we bargained for. If we're not, then why keep Shabbos and Kashrut, especially when there's so much minutia?Ichabod Chrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-64083522168156418682010-10-07T12:17:21.104-04:002010-10-07T12:17:21.104-04:00Hitler also made it illegal for Jews and non-Jews ...Hitler also made it illegal for Jews and non-Jews to marry.<br /><br />So if we are historically obligated to oppose the beliefs of those who oppressed us, I guess we are all required to intermarry.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-55628378544925918052010-10-07T11:31:58.445-04:002010-10-07T11:31:58.445-04:00Dave - I was speaking from the parents' point....Dave - I was speaking from the parents' point. A parent obviously was not keeping shabbos/kosher and had children with someone who was not Jewish. <br /><br />jrs - obviously you don't understand history. For thousands of years people wanted to destroy and eliminate Jews from this world. They tried it by burning Jews and by starving Jews and by shooting, gassing and etc. Even when they persuaded a Jew to convert, they never made him/her forget about his roots and made his life difficult and perilous and these converts were often killed for being a Jew anyways (for best reference please see Spanish Inquisition, Life in Tzarist Russia and of course WWII). <br /><br />Living as a practicing Jews is like shoving it back in their face "You see, you tried to kill us, but we are still here." But if you don't observe Jewish traditions then there is nothing holding you or your children from getting involved with people who are not Jewish and within a few generations your descendants won't even know of their roots. Basically you are playing into the hands of those who wanted to kill us. <br /><br />You may not like my logic, but it is my opinion that every Jew is historically obligated to be shomer regardless of what their own personal beleives are towards God.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-83084499684018155862010-10-07T10:11:44.742-04:002010-10-07T10:11:44.742-04:00Well obviously they were not keeping shabbos or ko...<i>Well obviously they were not keeping shabbos or kosher, otherwise their children would not be in such an impossible situation. </i><br /><br />Why should he? In this particular case, my friend isn't Jewish.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-21730211034925701312010-10-07T09:57:09.385-04:002010-10-07T09:57:09.385-04:00In summation: members of any group that has suffer...In summation: members of any group that has suffered mass social or religious persecution (the parameters to be determined by a panel of rabbonim) are 'obligated' to maintain the lifestyle/rituals of their ancestors. Can this get any sillier?<br />This sounds like someone who painted themselves into a rhetorical corner, and is digging in their heels rather than backtrack. My kids do this all the time.jrsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-41094919814718745092010-10-07T03:00:28.366-04:002010-10-07T03:00:28.366-04:00"Your logic suggests that he shouldn't be..."Your logic suggests that he shouldn't be allowed to do it." <br /><br />Hey, a word allow implies laws and courts. I never suggested anything of a kind. I said IMO all Jews should keep kosher and shabbos regardless of whether they believe in God. There is a big difference between should and law.<br /><br />"The person decides he wants to convert and become a frum Jew."<br /><br />Why should anyone want to convert to Judaism? I know there are many people who have no Jewish blood have this drive to do so, but I still don't get it. Why go through it? Why take upon yourself and all of your descendants such a huge obligation, life is hard as is, without all that additional stuff?<br /><br /> <br />"So, a friend of mine has grandchildren who are Native American on one side, and Jewish on the other." <br /><br />Well obviously they were not keeping shabbos or kosher, otherwise their children would not be in such an impossible situation.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-22505752283318809742010-10-07T02:13:26.134-04:002010-10-07T02:13:26.134-04:00mlevin
I can't agree that not keeping Shabbos ...mlevin<br />I can't agree that not keeping Shabbos and kashrus etc means that the persecutors have won. They had a specific agenda-- they wanted Jews to convert to their religion. They didn't want you to become an atheist. They wanted you to become Catholic or Moslem. If you don't convert to those religions they haven't won. If you become an atheist or a Unitaritan or a Mormon, or an Episcopalian or a Druid or even a Reform Jew, for example, they haven't won. <br /><br />If you follow your point of view then you can say the Haredim or those who are trying to impose an orthodox ideology have won. Some of us have had bad experiences with the frum community. Some of those bad experiences have occurred in one form or another for generations. I don't want to be in a position where they think they won.<br />Also let's say someone's parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were devout members of a sect of Christians, and suffered persecution for their beliefs. The person decides he wants to convert and become a frum Jew. Your logic suggests that he shouldn't be allowed to do it. Even if you were to say that the situation is different because the Jews didn't do the persecution, the fact that he's trying to change his religion suggests that he's saying that the persecutors were right.Ichabod Chrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10135127645580945472010-10-07T01:37:15.549-04:002010-10-07T01:37:15.549-04:00So, a friend of mine has grandchildren who are Nat...So, a friend of mine has grandchildren who are Native American on one side, and Jewish on the other.<br /><br />What are they supposed to do in this "persecution begets destiny" schema?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-16925462455012622672010-10-07T01:04:16.889-04:002010-10-07T01:04:16.889-04:00"So any practice which is grounds for persecu..."So any practice which is grounds for persecution requires that descendents continue it?"<br /><br />more or less, but yes, that's about why I think Jews should be observant regardless how they feel about existence of God, and I would say the same about American Indians and Gypsies and Armenians and Australian Aborigines and all other minority groups which suffered through bigotry and persecution and genocide.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12947997225193501642010-10-07T00:33:57.712-04:002010-10-07T00:33:57.712-04:00Just a quick note - Lazer Brody's logic here i...Just a quick note - Lazer Brody's logic here is very much along the lines of Polemicists from the Middle Ages known as Mutakallimun and actually he's not in bad company here, since his logic is roughly that used by the Kuzari and R' Sa'adya Ga'on. That logic is a focus on oral transmission, the fact that an enormous group of people seeing an event and saying the exact same thing happened is a near impossibility, so it must be true if those witnesses do so along with basing all conclusions on what your 5 senses are capable of perceiving. Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL used this logic to prove their religions as being correct and the others are heresy. The Rambam says this kind of logic is essentially stupid, but this was the pervading type of thought that was present in that era.<br /><br />That's my two centsZvikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16512595066793414151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-41805086449966863662010-10-06T22:35:06.079-04:002010-10-06T22:35:06.079-04:00Dave - here's a post you need to read, to unde...Dave - here's a post you need to read, to understand people better:<br /><br />http://shiltonhasechel.blogspot.com/2010/08/30-dumb-proofs.htmltesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-35060814990537905382010-10-06T15:55:56.069-04:002010-10-06T15:55:56.069-04:00So any practice which is grounds for persecution r...So any practice which is grounds for persecution requires that descendents continue it?<br /><br />So, then, if frei yidden are assaulted by Chareidim for breaking Shabbos or not keeping Kosher or not dressing to whatever standards are currently demanded, their children are forbidden from becoming BTs?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-66928962879139945752010-10-06T15:48:30.210-04:002010-10-06T15:48:30.210-04:00elemir - like I said, there is no amount of logic ...elemir - like I said, there is no amount of logic that can sway one's opinion on the matter. <br /><br />Dave - our ancestors for the past 2000 years or so were getting killed and tortured for being Jewish and claiming to be Jewish. Shabbos/Kashrut is the integral part of Judaism. There are no millennial long prosecutions of idol worshipers.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-81761126758491869162010-10-06T14:47:05.317-04:002010-10-06T14:47:05.317-04:00To Mlevin:
I don’t think you thought through all ...To Mlevin:<br /><br />I don’t think you thought through all the ramifications of 3 million people and their animals and belongings moving through the desert.<br /><br />I know you can say “well it was a miracle” and that everything and anything was supernatural.<br /><br />But i don’t buy it for 2 main reasons.<br />1) why would God want to erase all evidence of the desert trek.<br />2) And why wouldn’t the Khumash brag about all this additional miracles.<br /><br />Consider some other problems.<br /><br />Just the logistics of moving and then stopping for a group this size could take from 4-8 days. Think about it. And if they had to move through narrow mountain passes as was likely, it could take even longer. Did they just stop cold turkey for Shabbat? The Torah says they crossed the Yam Suf, overnight. (I know it was a miracle after all)<br /><br />What about the logistics of getting water. How did 3 million people and their animals get watered from a few wells. (I know it was a miracle)<br /><br />Here’s something you probably didn’t consider. How did the Mishkan function. Did the people use it?<br /><br />If it’s true that only b’nei Aaron were allowed to be Kohanim. At most there could have been 25 kohanim (sons and grandsons of Aaron).<br /><br />How did 25 kohanim service 1 million plus adults. Did the people even bring korbanot? who ate all the meat that was kodesh. If 1 individual just brought 1 korban all year that would be a million animals.<br /><br />Leviticus 12 says that a woman who gives birth brings a Korban (at least 2 doves or a sheep and a dove). Now since there were at least 1 million births, that’s a heck of a lot of doves. Where did the birds come from and again who ate the meat?<br /><br />And there’s a lot more ….<br /><br />Sure the evidence isn’t conclusive, but to me its compelling.elemirnoreply@blogger.com