tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post8673478940549279982..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: PseudoSkepticismBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-24247685745516332492007-03-11T22:44:00.000-04:002007-03-11T22:44:00.000-04:00Juat discovered your blog and I am catching up. I...Juat discovered your blog and I am catching up. I read this article a while back and it has helped me look at Chazal in a less skeptical way. http://www.lookstein.org/articles/vashti.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-87263737363886277112007-01-30T00:50:00.000-05:002007-01-30T00:50:00.000-05:00Wolf:
I keep mentioning the Maharitz Chayos and h...Wolf:<br /><br />I keep mentioning the Maharitz Chayos and his Movo Hatalmud as a good guide along the lines of your thinking. It looks like Yashar books has just published a translation of it.<br /><br />Take a look at the Hirhurim blog which is promoting it now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-14987854593750804212007-01-28T10:37:00.000-05:002007-01-28T10:37:00.000-05:00Nice post. You might want to check out my similar ...Nice post. You might want to check out my similar thoughts on the matter at <br />http://frumstershoppers.blogspot.com/2006/10/ani-maamin.html<br /><br />I'm not sure if these thoughts and views make you a "pseudoskeptic" so much as a "reluctant believer"- admittedly a subtle distinction. I find myself in your predicament quite often lately myself, and once you've looked down over the edge of midrashic and rabbinic skepticism, it's easy to go tumbling down the slippery slope of objectivity and start questioning things like basar b'cholov (as we practice it today), etc. <br /><br />Good post.Nice Jewish Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08143569412761938449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-2654622620375790532007-01-26T12:41:00.000-05:002007-01-26T12:41:00.000-05:00The Magic Multiplying Frog<a href="http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2006/01/frogs-here-frogs-there.html">The Magic Multiplying Frog</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-41073711755181125782007-01-26T12:40:00.000-05:002007-01-26T12:40:00.000-05:00how many died during darkness<a href="http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2006/02/how-many-died-during-darkness.html">how many died during darkness</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-11144628364389100252007-01-25T19:13:00.000-05:002007-01-25T19:13:00.000-05:00I think the worldview you described is intellectua...I think the worldview you described is intellectually acceptable. You stated two axioms at the outset and tried to build on them in a cogent fashion (i.e. rejecting that King of Nineveh was the same guy as Pharoah during L'Tziat Mitzrayim). <br /><br />But, when I think of a real skeptic I think of Elisha Ben Avuya as portrayed in "As a Driven Leaf." Of course, things didn't exactly work out for him - so perhaps you are better off as a "pseudo-skeptic."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-77246309274201874622007-01-25T17:53:00.000-05:002007-01-25T17:53:00.000-05:00One does not have to be "MO" to doubt much of the ...One does not have to be "MO" to doubt much of the historical veracity of ancient Jewish sources, unless you define "MO" as precisely that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-42861944407811179762007-01-25T15:33:00.000-05:002007-01-25T15:33:00.000-05:00The answer, you misunderstand. Accept does not mea...The answer, you misunderstand. Accept does not mean as truth but as commitment whether it is provable or not. Rashba is referring to beliefs such as that Moshe is a prophet. That is only provable if experienced. We accept it as our forefather's commitment and bond with HKBH not necessarily because it is provable.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-76098823058169291512007-01-25T14:04:00.000-05:002007-01-25T14:04:00.000-05:00Not only do some people believe that all T"SbP sou...<i>Not only do some people believe that all T"SbP sources are equal, but they believe that they are equal to Biblical sources. To recognize the difference isn't kefirah: it's intelligence. </i><br /><br />Well said, Rare Find.LThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02375040239139715087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-37791911340301152312007-01-25T13:56:00.000-05:002007-01-25T13:56:00.000-05:00David:
Sounds like you are backing away from your...David:<br /><br />Sounds like you are backing away from your statement "Rashba says that our forefathers taught us not to <b>accept anything</b> until proven 100% that it is true"<br /><br />After all, you just accepted these three without 100% proof although you claim the Rashba said not to "accept anything" without 100% proof.<br /><br />Might I say that "anything" is a misquote? Or it is limited in scope as in "anything not in the realm of religios belief or doctrine."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-16320904053624155362007-01-25T04:56:00.000-05:002007-01-25T04:56:00.000-05:00Big S - I agree with you and think that Midrashim ...Big S - I agree with you and think that Midrashim are doing exactly that, trying to decipher the meaning behind the text which BTW is the Truth. <br /><br />>Logically what could be taught at the "yeshiva (?)" of shem v'aver? How long do you need to learn 7 laws? <br /><br />I think you have the wrong concept of what a yeshiva is. It is not necessarily a place one discusses Abaye and Rava but rather the theology of finding God. That includes all sciences, philkosophy etc... the seven mitzvot being a tool just like the 613 are to help in that quest.<br /><br />>Seriously, 100% is a high threshold which most things won't surpass. For example: existence of God, Torah mi-Sinai, testimony of witnesses etc.<br /><br />See my post yesterday on Rashba.<br /><br />Existence of God is to me empirically provable (First Cause)<br /><br />TMS is more a matter of acceptance than proof for us. It might have beeen and probably was as understood by Rambam and Rashba to those who participated in the event.(Intersetingly enough it is more so for the two I quoted than Kuzari- just had an idea for a post) To us it is accepted.<br /><br />Testimony of witness is a halachik rule and has nothing to do with fact. See Yesodei Hatorah 7:7.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-39660318040148153362007-01-25T02:02:00.000-05:002007-01-25T02:02:00.000-05:00After all, as I wrote, one of the factors that goe...<i>After all, as I wrote, one of the factors that goes into my decision is the Source of the statement - a pasuk in Chumash gets much more credit than a midrash.</i><br /><br />Hmmm, but why? If we allow that the midrashic authors take a certain amount literary license in composing their tales, then why cannot we allow that the Biblical author(s) takes the same license as well? If we regard the midrashim as intended to convey a <b>message</b> and not "the Truth", then why not regard the Bible also as conveying a message and not "the Truth"? This would lead to a reading of the Bible that focuses not on "what actually happened" but rather on "what does the story <b>mean</b> for us, or for its intended audience." Sarna's approach, basically.Big-S Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11592881477466761046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-43476650032325060662007-01-25T01:06:00.000-05:002007-01-25T01:06:00.000-05:00I agree w/you,so are we both psuedoskeptics or are...I agree w/you,so are we both psuedoskeptics or are we both just skeptical and disbelieving NYers? <br /><br />This is the problem that I have with virtually all of the midrashim. Logically what could be taught at the "yeshiva (?)" of shem v'aver? How long do you need to learn 7 laws? <br /><br />I suppose this is heresy but if you look at the chumash from a literary point the "voice" changes as does the recounting of events. Hence the need for these different voices to be reconciled. Also Va'yekra (sp, sorry) is just dumped in the middle with limited connection to the "story".Why put the Kohanim's training manual in the middle of everything if it was all dictacted at Har Sinai? <br /><br />It's discussion like these that I think the right is paranoid of. So instead of welcoming thinking and creative thought, problem solving, we're looking backwards and breeding a generation of sheep, which you so aptly described in your other post. (sorry I haven't had time to read much of late).<br /><br />Thanks for your great thought provoking blogs. i always enjoy them.queeniesmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01019952170168937114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-84673410228019848322007-01-24T19:46:00.000-05:002007-01-24T19:46:00.000-05:00Excellent post. Personally, I liked this the best:...Excellent post. Personally, I liked this the best:<br /><br />"Not all sources in Torah SheB'Al Peh are equal -- and each should be judged accordingly. If you take the position that it's all MiSinai and equally valid, then you have a hopeless jumble of contradictory information."<br /><br />Not only do some people believe that all T"SbP sources are equal, but they believe that they are equal to Biblical sources. To recognize the difference isn't kefirah: it's intelligence.The Rashbloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08417387457516475229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-76370624277935756632007-01-24T14:25:00.000-05:002007-01-24T14:25:00.000-05:00Big-S,
I'm not so sure that that's the case. Aft...Big-S,<br /><br />I'm not so sure that that's the case. After all, as I wrote, one of the factors that goes into my decision is the Source of the statement - a pasuk in Chumash gets much more credit than a midrash. <br /><br />Unless, of course, you subscribe to the idea that Moshe got all the midrashim on Sinai too...<br /><br />The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-35469911229489604812007-01-24T13:49:00.000-05:002007-01-24T13:49:00.000-05:00I think the reason that Orthodox Jews are so prone...I think the reason that Orthodox Jews are so prone to taking midrashim literally (even when this requires throwing the brain out the window) is that they detect a slippery slope. Some of the stories in the Bible are as outrageous as the most fanciful midrashim. If we can say about a midrash "this is too ridiculous to be taken seriously" then can we not say the same thing about some of the ridiculous tales in Tanach? People don't want to open that door, and so they feel compelled to swear allegiance to every midrashic fantasy. It's too bad, but there is a certain logic to it. Unless a person is prepared to take a naturalistic or critical view of the Bible itself, there will be a reluctance to take a critical view of midrashim.Big-S Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11592881477466761046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-33169821153061503792007-01-24T13:35:00.000-05:002007-01-24T13:35:00.000-05:00David:
I don't believe the Rashba said that :).
...David:<br /><br />I don't believe the Rashba said that :). <br /><br />Seriously, 100% is a high threshold which most things won't surpass. For example: existence of God, Torah mi-Sinai, testimony of witnesses etc. <br /><br />Are you sure it said 100%?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-67280484440031749422007-01-24T11:15:00.000-05:002007-01-24T11:15:00.000-05:00There is a Tshuvat Rashba (Icannot remeber the num...There is a Tshuvat Rashba (Icannot remeber the number but it deals with Ma'amad har sinai and the Rambam) where he says that after every Makka the Jews were impressed but after thinking about it became skeptical and decided that Moshe was just very smart. Rashba says that our forefathers taught us not to accept anything until proven 100% that it is true.<br /><br />Sounds like a Pseudo Skeptic to me (according to your definition).:-)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-59773011746979353332007-01-24T10:05:00.000-05:002007-01-24T10:05:00.000-05:00XGH,
You're a bright fellow. You know what "pseu...XGH,<br /><br />You're a bright fellow. You know what "pseudo-" means. :)<br /><br />The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-44238545246618390142007-01-23T22:07:00.000-05:002007-01-23T22:07:00.000-05:00I don't think you are even a psedo-skeptic, just M...I don't think you are even a psedo-skeptic, just MO. I think that you are not willing to take the leap to true rational thinking at all, when it conflicts with the ikkarim or other key principles. so you're 'skeptical' of a few wacky midrashim?! Feh! Midrashim, Science of Chazal and those types of things don't have to be taken literally even according to genuine good frum sources (unless you are deep Chareidi), therefore its perfectly 'safe' to reject them. I protest at this misuse of the word 'skeptical', you give skeptics a bad name ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-90269697636121004742007-01-23T19:38:00.000-05:002007-01-23T19:38:00.000-05:00Wolf,
As far as I can tell, your perspective on t...Wolf,<br /><br />As far as I can tell, your perspective on things puts you solidly in the MO camp and not in Conservative-ville. The key differences are the approach to Halacha and whether the Torah is actually the literal word of God than anything else.<br /><br />Though personally I find it very telling that one actually has to explain why the most crazy stories are things which one has trouble believing. I'm convinced that the holy-rollers follow the well-known adage that you can't die from a non-kashya.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-18681695479007859282007-01-23T19:23:00.000-05:002007-01-23T19:23:00.000-05:00The Rambam in his introduction to Cheilek writes d...The Rambam in his introduction to Cheilek writes disparagingly of both those who take unbelievable Midrashim literally, and those who assume Chazal were fools for saying such things. Rather, one must strive to understand the lesson Chazal were teaching by way of the Midrash.<br /><br />It is a good thing you don't seem to have heard the variant of the Midrash that only 1 in 300,000 Jews left Egypt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-90057352409484306882007-01-23T13:31:00.000-05:002007-01-23T13:31:00.000-05:00Wolf:
Great post. You should really read the Mov...Wolf:<br /><br />Great post. You should really read the Movo Hatalmud of the Maharitz Chiyos. In the tradition of the Maharal, he does not take wild Midrash or Talmud stories literally. Rather they teach a lesson through allegory.<br /><br />I would hope most would agree with your view point on this because it is very sensible. Unfortunately most continue to take literally the fantastic stories they learned in elementary school. The higher-level schools are to blame for giving students a more sophisticated way to understand these aggadic writings.<br /><br />BTW: I have had the same questions on the midrashim you cite for the same reasons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10018983898267113482007-01-23T09:56:00.000-05:002007-01-23T09:56:00.000-05:00Hey- nice to see you at my blog- thought I'd leave...Hey- nice to see you at my blog- thought I'd leave you a comment here- What you are describing is more of a Conservative position- never doubting the TRUTH of the Torah, but often doubting the details- Believing that SOMETHING amazing happened out there in the desert that resulted in the Torah, but not being certain of exactly what. This is modernity and we're all in it- we can't go back to leading a midieval life- even if we really want to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-8996412657947133742007-01-22T23:26:00.000-05:002007-01-22T23:26:00.000-05:00You could call yourself pseudoskeptic...
But to b...You could call yourself pseudoskeptic...<br /><br />But to be honest, your viewpoint is very similar to those who fall on the more traditional sides of Conservative Judaism. There are strains of Conservative thought in which TMS is accepted, but there is a greater skepticism of our rabbinic tradition and a strong prevalence to look at Tanach metaphorically when it makes you go "wha?!"<br /><br />Good post, btw.LThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02375040239139715087noreply@blogger.com