tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post9136704189394184124..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Yeshivos Have A Duty To Teach Secular Studies To Our KidsBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-80298532353417412832008-11-12T01:03:00.000-05:002008-11-12T01:03:00.000-05:00just one little point:"I've commented in the past ...just one little point:<BR/><BR/>"I've commented in the past on how the very idea of working for a living is denigrated in our yeshivos"<BR/><BR/>i assume you mean "our" in the limited sense rather in the general sense. there are many yeshivos--certainly the ones that all my friends send their kids to--that don't denigrate working for a living.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-58939547207076589542008-11-11T23:21:00.001-05:002008-11-11T23:21:00.001-05:00Oh and many kids drop out.Oh and many kids drop out.Mikeinmidwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076346601047947913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-73698048162743127442008-11-11T23:21:00.000-05:002008-11-11T23:21:00.000-05:00I wrote a post about this http://mikeinmidwood.blo...I wrote a post about this http://mikeinmidwood.blogspot.com/2008/09/yeshiva-high-school-drop-outs.html<BR/><BR/>The Rebbeim teach why not to learn secular studies and the teachers dont like how the kids arent taking the classes seriously and the kids end up paying the price.Mikeinmidwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076346601047947913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-3007220586618449252008-11-11T22:40:00.000-05:002008-11-11T22:40:00.000-05:00Just curious Wolf, but knowing what you know now, ...Just curious Wolf, but knowing what you know now, do you still think it would send the "wrong" message? <BR/><BR/>(Personally I don't think the scheduling sends a message at all because Walter would soon enough develop his own view of the importance of Judaic studies, and that would depend a lot on whether he was innately skeptical.) <BR/><BR/>What I question about your post is that here you are criticizing (validly in my opinion) those who have learned what you consider to be the right message about Judaic studies, but then you say that the scheduling would have taught Walter the wrong message. You put the choices as being between the "right" message and the "wrong" message. But then your post says that the "right" message gets easily transformed into an even wronger message than the "wrong" message. <BR/><BR/>So if that's the case, and the "wrong" message" might not even be perceived as a message at all, then aren't you better off sending a kid to the best school for him, and not worrying about whether the scheduling sends the "wrong" message. Don't you need to worry more about the "right" message getting taken too far?<BR/><BR/>(Not trying to call you on the carpet. It's just that I sense a contradiction between your post and the footnote about Walter.)<BR/><BR/>Ichabod ChrainAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-26445131221981735662008-11-11T18:00:00.000-05:002008-11-11T18:00:00.000-05:00Chaim B,When I do resume writing with my students ...Chaim B,<BR/>When I do resume writing with my students some of them put learning in yeshiva down under work experience. And some of them never come to understand that the outside world doesn't look at it that way. They think I'm wrong to remove it from where they put it. But then again, if they don't put the learning under work experience then they have nothing else to put there.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-5869714539579040802008-11-11T16:58:00.000-05:002008-11-11T16:58:00.000-05:00>>>They've been told by their yeshivo...>>>They've been told by their yeshivos (either explicitly or implictly) that obtaining job skills is a waste of time, <BR/><BR/>I think the message being sent in some quarters is that yeshiva ed = job skills. I have gotten comments on my blog arguing that yeshiva study alone is the best preparation for the LSATs or whatnot. My wife has gotten resumes listing "overseas studies" in yeshiva as a qualification - and it is no wonder that the same resume was filled with grammatical errors. It's time for a reality check.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-76181834478963094102008-11-11T14:55:00.000-05:002008-11-11T14:55:00.000-05:00Wolf,I would be the last person to say that you sh...Wolf,<BR/>I would be the last person to say that you should not have your own opinion and choose a school that fits what you want, but perhaps we might also consider that "acharon, acharon, choviv?" It's usually not the first course or appetizer that everyone considers as the "real" meal but what comes after it.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-50686582669467548822008-11-11T14:45:00.000-05:002008-11-11T14:45:00.000-05:00Prof,I understand your point, and, as I mentioned,...Prof,<BR/><BR/>I understand your point, and, as I mentioned, I didn't think the reversal was caused by any ideological belief in the superiority of secular studies. It certainly was simply a scheduling decision.<BR/><BR/>I'm not suggesting that my approach is the right one. For Eeees and I, we felt that having Limudei Kodesh at the beginning of the day sends the message that it is more important (which, in the long run, it is). I understand that not everyone will pick up on (or even agree with) that message. <BR/><BR/>You certainly have a valid point about L. Chol starting so late in the afternoon. I'm wondering if perhaps there might not be another solution (i.e. having a shiur in the morning, starting L. Chol at an earlier time (12:30, maybe) and then having an afternoon seder after English. That may work, or it may not. I agree with you that the system needs improvement, but, for me at least, having L. Kodesh in the morning is very important.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-44309907291664673132008-11-11T14:38:00.000-05:002008-11-11T14:38:00.000-05:00Wolf,Re your footnote about the reversing of the t...Wolf,<BR/>Re your footnote about the reversing of the time periods for secular and Judaic studies, I taught in a day school where this reversal happened regularly depending on which grade you were in. And frankly, it's a model that more schools should be adopting. I taught English to a fourth grade in the morning and taught English and History to the junior high classes in the afternoon. The limudei kodesh instructors also worked a full day, teaching different grades in the morning and afternoon. It's one very real and practical way to cut down on the expenses involved in staffing a school. While our salaries were more because we were teaching a longer day they weren't double a single session. And there were lots less teachers to have to pay benefits for. Less staff also meant less administrators, another savings. Because there was less staff but we were there all day also meant that it was easier to locate other staff members for conferences about students.<BR/><BR/>And let's be honest here--there is nothing particularly "frummer" about the morning hours as opposed to the afternoon hours. Someone began things this way and they have followed along like this because "that's how we have always done it," not because it is some halachic requirement. If afternoon hours are such a poor time for students to be learning limudei kodesh then how do we justify boys schools that first begin secular studies after 3:oo pm? Isn't that at least 2 hours of "wasted" learning time? Or Beis Medrash learning that is from the morning until the evening?ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.com