tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post9138333041721965930..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Yet Another Tznius Letter... Making Promises for God to KeepBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-52242188321302337702009-08-28T08:14:37.265-04:002009-08-28T08:14:37.265-04:00Trying to shift the burden won't work to save ...Trying to shift the burden won't work to save face.<br />You are tacitly admitting that your assumptions are not based on any real knowledge and they are simply based on what you believe is "reasonable".<br /><br />Thanks. That's all I want.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-18390537039026459342009-08-28T04:11:49.156-04:002009-08-28T04:11:49.156-04:00You seem to assume that the norm historically in J...You seem to assume that the norm historically in Jewish communities was tznius standards similar to what the mid-to-right hold of now. Further, you seem to assume that this was the norm everywhere that there were religious Jews. You then require me to conclusivly prove that this isn't so.<br /><br />Enough.<br /><br />Prove that it was.<br /><br />Prove that all of the pictures and paitnings of Jews in contemporary period dress were produced by non-Jews.<br /><br />Or we could make the reasonable assumption that there were different norms in different places at different times, and the claim that our current period is terrible compared to the past is at best a comparison with a very select sample.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-25567490475546819562009-08-27T07:40:31.415-04:002009-08-27T07:40:31.415-04:00but its unlikely that all of it was from non-Jews....<i>but its unlikely that all of it was from non-Jews.</i><br /><br />Why?<br />More baseless assumptions.<br /><br />"<i>...when everyone kept halachah to ultra-Orthodox standards. Not tznius or anything else.</i>"<br /><br />Excuse me, I thought we were discussing "norms".<br />Where did this straw man about "everyone" come from?Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10265310264229224132009-08-26T15:26:54.632-04:002009-08-26T15:26:54.632-04:00Intersting, that seforim popular among Jews were o...Intersting, that seforim popular among Jews were originally printed by Christians.<br /><br />All right, some Jewish books were published by people who wouldn't have shared their values. There's still an awful lot of art depicting Jewish women dressed in a way that would be considered untznious by today's standards.<br /><br />I suppose it is possible that they were produced by the "Modern Orthodox" equivlants of the period, but its unlikely that all of it was from non-Jews.<br /><br />I wonder if in a thousand years from now two other people will have this same discussion, one citing photographs from MO communities and the other insisting that only chareidim were "normative."<br /><br />And that's what it is about the insistance that all Jews have always held the way we do today that bugs me. Jews have never been monolithic, and there never was a Golden Age when everyone kept halachah to ultra-Orthodox standards. Not tznius or anything else.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-15823261815385922242009-08-26T09:13:47.415-04:002009-08-26T09:13:47.415-04:00Follow-up comment:
"The famous Gutenberg Bibl...Follow-up comment:<br />"<i>The famous Gutenberg Bible, a religous book, was certainly not published by a religious Jew. But that's probably not what you meant.</i>"<br /><br />That's close. I meant this person:<br /><br />See here and especially what I bolded below:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bomberg<br /><br />"Daniel Bomberg (died 1549) was an early printer of Hebrew language books. <b>Christian,</b> born in Antwerp, he was primarily active in Venice between 1516 and 1549.<br /><br />He produced the editio princeps of the Mikraot Gedolot, the Rabbinic Bible, consisting of the Hebrew text plus rabbinical commentaries, between 1516 and 1517, and the first and oldest complete set of the Talmud, between 1520 and 1523, a well-preserved copy of which is contained in the Valmadonna Trust Library.<br /><br /><b>Bomberg found a ready audience among the Jews of Italy, whose numbers had been swelled by exiles from Spain and Portugal. Bomberg's presses eventually produced some 230 Hebrew books,</b> and his innovations in Hebrew typography set the standard for later printers."<br /><br />Please have the good graces to admit a mistaken assumption about Jewish book publishers in the middle-ages.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-6661195035507242812009-08-26T09:03:34.506-04:002009-08-26T09:03:34.506-04:00"Are you suggesting that there were Jewish re..."<i>Are you suggesting that there were Jewish religious books published by secular Jews?</i>"<br /><br />No. Non-Jews and Maskillim are also candidates that you cannot eliminate.<br /><br />"<i>Because there was no such thing as a secular Jew in the middle ages.</i>"<br /><br />I see you see Jewish publishing history in black-and-white.<br />Note I included the "pious" qualifier in my statement.<br />So the burden of proof still rests squarely upon you to show that the artists/publishers of said illustrations were representative of normal Jewish society.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-17495759819886939762009-08-25T21:45:18.021-04:002009-08-25T21:45:18.021-04:00> Not all printing presses which published reli...> Not all printing presses which published religious books in the middle ages were owned by pious religious Jews!<br /><br />Of course. The famous Gutenberg Bible, a religous book, was certainly not published by a religious Jew. But that's probably not what you meant.<br /><br />Are you suggesting that there were Jewish religious books published by secular Jews? Because there was no such thing as a secular Jew in the middle ages.<br /><br />Here, take a look at this.<br />http://holyhyrax.blogspot.com/2008/04/venetian-haggadah-and-modern.htmlG*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1592267505215727412009-08-25T07:45:18.051-04:002009-08-25T07:45:18.051-04:00"Jews lived in the ghettos because they had t..."<i>Jews lived in the ghettos because they had to, both because the government forced them to and for their own protection. Not because they were trying to keep themselves from the rest of the world.</i>"<br /><br />I never made such a claim. But <i>de facto</i>, the physical separation created social separation which prevented assimilation.<br />So the very existence of the ghetto throughout Europe--regardless of its intended purpose-- is evidence against your assumption of influence on Jewish modesty norms. The burden of proof remains squarely upon you.<br /><br /><br />"<i>produced by religious artists for religious publishers.</i><br /><br />I dispute this. Do you have proof?<br /><br />Maybe the manuscripts were submitted by the pious rabbis but the rest of the publication process--including the illustrations--was out of his control (just like Shalit's book)?<br /> <br />Not all printing presses which published religious books in the middle ages were owned by pious religious Jews!Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-8697882860043501942009-08-24T15:25:42.021-04:002009-08-24T15:25:42.021-04:00I heard the same thing about family purity, that i...I heard the same thing about family purity, that if a couple keeps the mitzvah of family purity, then their home will have blessing -<br /><br />On the one hand, we shouldn't expect that if we do a certain thing, we will deffinately have what we want. That could lead to disappointment if we don't receive what we're asking. <br />However, mitzvos bring blessing and holiness to the home in general.smbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00425290796472256844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-86256792797313254482009-08-24T13:03:47.757-04:002009-08-24T13:03:47.757-04:00> I suppose you would never distinguish between...> I suppose you would never distinguish between pre-and post-emancipation periods in Jewish history<br /><br />The difference is the extent to which Jews were able to participate in society, and Jews were more influenced by the general society as they tried to become a part of it. But we’re talking about whether or not “the Jewish community of those times were directly "exposed" to those non-Jewish norms on a daily basis.” Even in the days of the ghettos and shtetles Jews had regular contact with the rest of the population.<br /><br />> I guess you really never heard of the Jewish ghetto! Amazing!<br /><br />The ghettos were not the holy bastions of Judaism you imagine them to be. Jews lived in the ghettos because they had to, both because the government forced them to and for their own protection. Not because they were trying to keep themselves from the rest of the world. Don’t believe it? Look how quickly Jews left the ghettos once they were able to.<br /><br />> This is proof of the tznius standards of the PUBLISHERS and nothing more.<br /><br />Granted, we can’t know if these were accurate portrayals based on the pictures alone. But these were religious materials produced by religious artists for religious publishers. Also, why would they include pictures that their target customers would find offensive? That’s bad for business.<br /><br />> Just ask Wendy Shalit. She was appalled by the publisher's choice of cover art for her book on modesty.<br /><br />Obviously the publisher doesn’t share her values. The publisher used a cover that will sell books. This is not at all analogous to a religious publisher producing haggados for use by his co-religionists.<br /><br />Think about this. Would Artscroll produce a haggadah showing women crossing the yam suf in contemporary dress, including pants, short sleeves, and low necklines? They wouldn’t because 1) it runs counter to their values and 2) their target audience is far more likely to ban the haggadah than they are to buy it. Yet there are haggados that show women in contemporary medieval or renaissance Jewish clothing (including distinctive Jewish badges or hats) with low necklines that were published by religious publishers for religious customers. What does that tell you?G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-84524510768604273412009-08-24T09:01:11.420-04:002009-08-24T09:01:11.420-04:00"But really, if want proof of tznius standard..."<i>But really, if want proof of tznius standards, look at paintings and engravings done way back when. There are plenty of extant illuminated manuscripts (haggados, meggilos, etc.) from the middle ages and printed versions from the last four hundred years that clearly show Jewish women with low necklines and exposed elbows. You can even find some of them online.</i>"<br /><br />This is proof of the tznius standards of the PUBLISHERS and nothing more.<br />Just ask Wendy Shalit. She was appalled by the publisher's choice of cover art for her book on modesty.<br />http://www.amazon.com/Return-Modesty-Discovering-Lost-Virtue/dp/0684863170<br /><br />As you can see (or maybe shouldn't see), this does not reflect the dress code of live people (even the authors of their own book).Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-56568810788724114412009-08-24T08:33:59.786-04:002009-08-24T08:33:59.786-04:00"There has been a Jewish community in Rome si..."<i>There has been a Jewish community in Rome since before the churban bayis sheini. Does that help?</i>"<br /><br />Nope. Ever heard of "a Jewish ghetto"?<br /><br />"<i>Right. Because the Jewish community has always existed in a hermetically sealed cocoon, protected from the evil influences of the goyim.</i>"<br /><br />The sarcasm isn't warranted.<br />I suppose you would never distinguish between pre-and post-emancipation periods in Jewish history because "the Jewish community always existed in non-Jewish lands and they were never hermetically sealed cocoons"...<br />I guess you really never heard of the Jewish ghetto! Amazing!Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-88595533107479150832009-08-24T02:49:17.497-04:002009-08-24T02:49:17.497-04:00> You have not brought any evidence that the Je...> You have not brought any evidence that the Jewish community of those times were directly "exposed" to those non-Jewish norms on a daily basis. To disprove the theory that today's situation is worse, you need to provide that crucial element.<br /><br />Right. Because the Jewish community has always existed in a hermetically sealed cocoon, protected from the evil influences of the goyim.<br /><br />There has been a Jewish community in Rome since before the churban bayis sheini. Does that help?<br /><br />But really, if want proof of tznius standards, look at paintings and engravings done way back when. There are plenty of extant illuminated manuscripts (haggados, meggilos, etc.) from the middle ages and printed versions from the last four hundred years that clearly show Jewish women with low necklines and exposed elbows. You can even find some of them online.<br /><br />The “moral crises” of revealing clothing decried by pundits in the 60s and 70s (the age of the mini skirt) and by the frum world today is largely a product of the Victorian era and its prudish notions of appropriateness. This was a culture where exposed ankles were as titillating as exposed breasts and a true lady wore a hoop skirt that kept any gentleman accompanying her at arms length.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-2294951313595680372009-08-23T12:15:49.675-04:002009-08-23T12:15:49.675-04:00"and abrogated to himself the ability to prom..."<i>and abrogated to himself the ability to promise something in God's name!</i>"<br /><br />that's 'arrogate'. (My heart goes out to you, Wolf. I've often confused it with 'aggregate' myself.)<br /><br />Responding to G*3:<br />You have not brought any evidence that the Jewish community of those times were directly "exposed" to those non-Jewish norms on a daily basis. To disprove the theory that today's situation is worse, you need to provide that crucial element.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-13767891064992497092009-08-23T10:37:10.602-04:002009-08-23T10:37:10.602-04:00Notice the fundamental assumption that it is the w...Notice the fundamental assumption that it is the woman's fault if the couple is childless. The biological cause may actually be on the husband's side. As for the proposed solution, if that's all there is to it, Chana would not have had to pour our her heart in prayer and promise her son to Hashem's service after years of childlessness. Sarah would not have suggested Avraham marry Hagar, and Rachel would not not have pushed her own maid on Yaakov. People like the author of this letter should go back to basics, beginning with TaNaCh.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10410861753388093342009-08-21T14:39:32.605-04:002009-08-21T14:39:32.605-04:00So many of the gedolim of the past were never bles...So many of the gedolim of the past were never blessed with children. I know some couples who suffered/are suffering from infertility who are machmir on matters of tzniut. <br /><br />Hashem has a plan for everyone, and playing Gd in this matter is very distasteful.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-24326731946207329882009-08-21T14:24:33.241-04:002009-08-21T14:24:33.241-04:00Honestly,
While the letter is insensitive and in ...Honestly,<br /><br />While the letter is insensitive and in bad taste, there is nothing threatening about it. You'd have a hard time making the case of "threating," let alone terrorist.<br /><br />Let's not overexaggerate.<br /><br />The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-23874884090658931452009-08-21T14:07:45.578-04:002009-08-21T14:07:45.578-04:00If I ever got a letter like this I would turn it o...If I ever got a letter like this I would turn it over to the Police and FBI becuase these people are terrorists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-31985896266265881262009-08-21T12:00:29.882-04:002009-08-21T12:00:29.882-04:00> See YU's Tzelem program, linked below
Go...> See YU's Tzelem program, linked below<br /><br />Good to see, but you know that most people who are regulars on the Lakewood site don't really consider YU frum.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-42888968071812529012009-08-21T09:37:37.161-04:002009-08-21T09:37:37.161-04:00Sadly ironic that the same "cheder learning&q...Sadly ironic that the same "cheder learning" that led the imbecile to write the insensitive letter and the moronic editor to publish it will lead them both to not "be goreis" your excellent post!<br /><br />(use of yeshivish for their benefit- I am confident they have internet in the closet!)<br />Yossi GinzbergAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-21720163176233894402009-08-21T02:08:20.919-04:002009-08-21T02:08:20.919-04:00"We most certainly should, but don’t expect t..."We most certainly should, but don’t expect the yeshivas and bais yaakovs to be adding sex ed to their curriculums anytime soon."<br /><br />See YU's Tzelem program, linked below:<br /><br />"Modern Orthodox youth who attend yeshiva day schools and high schools, are living within the modern world and are exposed to television and the media’s perspective on sexuality. Often there is no Jewish response, from within yeshivot, to provide a Jewish approach to sexuality and relationships, and children are left with the impression that Judaism has either nothing to say about the subject, or, that it only has negative things to say. Additionally, even in the absence of a highly sexualized modern culture, the total void of any systematic education which addresses such a fundamental part of personal development within a Jewish context is problematic. Children and teenagers in yeshiva day schools require more information, guidance, direct conversation and opportunities to ask questions about issues of intimacy and Judaism that are so often on their minds"<br /><br />http://www.yu.edu/cjf/page.aspx?id=18096<br /><br />Also, see this article("Jewish Sexual Education & The Lack Thereof<br />"):<br /><br />http://media.www.yuobserver.com/media/storage/paper989/news/2008/12/30/Features/Jewish.Sexual.Education.The.Lack.Thereof-3581369.shtmlShades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-70034770769845455462009-08-20T23:51:40.376-04:002009-08-20T23:51:40.376-04:00> Tznius is a more pressing concern these days ...> Tznius is a more pressing concern these days because the general population around us (unfortunately including many Jews) dresses in an anti-tznius fashion.<br /><br />“these days?” As opposed to when? Anceint Greece, where the Olympic athlestes competed nude? Ancient Rome, where both men and women used public restrooms (minus the room) that consisted of nothing more than a bench with a hole in it over a canal with running water in the market? The courts of medieval Europe, where it was once fashionable for noblewomen to wear dresses cut below their breasts? The shared family beds that most people had for most of history, where children could learn the facts of life first hand by observing their parents?<br /><br />Or compared to the short-lived, highly repressive standards of Victorian England, which for some reason many people assume was the norm for all of history before it.<br />(Probably partly due to Victorians re-writing history books to conform to their notions of decency.)<br /><br />> and in a way it makes women feel like they have some control - i.e. if I keep every strand of my hair covered at all times, I can keep my family safe.<br /><br />Interesting theory, and has a disturbing corollary with anorexia.<br /><br />> having any sort of attraction to any woman you are not married to is an evil on par with murder<br /><br />Worse than murder. Worse than murdering someone on Yom Kippur while eating a cheeseburger.<br /><br />> perhaps we should make a corresponding effort to make sure that our children have an opportunity to ask all questions and can develop a healthy attitude towards sexuality.<br /><br />We most certainly should, but don’t expect the yeshivas and bais yaakovs to be adding sex ed to their curriculums anytime soon.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-67041728769663159422009-08-20T22:27:08.973-04:002009-08-20T22:27:08.973-04:00"The obssesion with tznius comes from an extr..."The obssesion with tznius comes from an extreme feeling of guilt that many frum men get from having ANY kind of enjoyment from looking or thinking about ANY woman or from being attracted to ANY woman in any way shape or form."<br /><br />I don't think that can be proven.<br /><br />I think the increase in tzniyus comes because some frum women indeed are dressing inappropriately. Also, people attribute misfortunes to a lack of tznyius.<br /><br />I do agree that the frum community needs to be sure that it's raising healthy children. <br /><br />At the same time that we are putting so much energy into controlling male desires by means of tzniyus, perhaps we should make a corresponding effort to make sure that our children have an opportunity to ask all questions and can develop a healthy attitude towards sexuality.Shades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-55072643459638716432009-08-20T15:25:27.407-04:002009-08-20T15:25:27.407-04:00Perhaps it's because a lifetime in the Beis Me...Perhaps it's because a lifetime in the Beis Medrash doesn't translate into a cmplex understanding of Judaism.<br />Simplistic minds will seek out simplistic answers.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-48651501948342752722009-08-20T13:09:04.887-04:002009-08-20T13:09:04.887-04:00The obssesion with tznius comes from an extreme fe...The obssesion with tznius comes from an extreme feeling of guilt that many frum men get from having ANY kind of enjoyment from looking or thinking about ANY woman or from being attracted to ANY woman in any way shape or form. <br />This is a result of it having been drilled into their heads from when they are 10 years old that any form of looking at woman, or having any sort of attraction to any woman you are not married to is an evil on par with murder and you will burn in hell for them. <br /><br />Of course being that frum men are humans when they see a pretty woman they find her attractive this they beleive is a horrible evil sin and they find it easier to live with themselves if they just blame the woman for looking attractive then accept the blame for this horrible evil they feel they have done (I know its messed up but thats the facts)000646noreply@blogger.com