tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post114648869129481528..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: On The Definition of RealityBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-57445127922135478862006-12-26T11:49:00.000-05:002006-12-26T11:49:00.000-05:00Wolf
This proof of the positions of the planets i...Wolf<br /><br />This proof of the positions of the planets is no Ra'aya. Mars can be on the far side of its orbit around Earth, Mercury and the sun on the other side and Mercury will interpose between the sun and Mars.<br /><br />However, a good proof is the fact that Venus and Mercury are often found on the far side of the sun from the Earth. Now, that cannot happen as the Rambam says that the Galgalim do not cross.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1150929678010491042006-06-21T18:41:00.000-04:002006-06-21T18:41:00.000-04:00Read "The Wager":In the summer of 1975, an encount...Read "The Wager":<BR/><BR/>In the summer of 1975, an encounter took place between Rabbi F.R., a Lubavitcher chassid, and Mr. A.P., a "modernized" American Jew. Rabbi R. was seeking to influence Mr. P. toward a greater commitment to Torah observance, which the latter dismissed as "archaic" and dismally outdated. In the course of the conversation, Mr. P. said, "Are you telling me that every law and practice mentioned in the Torah, written thousands of years ago, must be accepted at face value today?" <BR/>"Certainly,” replied Rabbi R. "The Torah is eternal, and is equally pertinent to every day and age." <BR/>"The Torah states that the sun revolves around the earth," countered Mr. P. "Do you believe that as well?"<BR/>"Yes, I do," replied Rabbi R.<BR/>"Well, you might believe that," said Mr. P., "but no rational, self-respecting inhabitant of the 20th century does. I’m sure your rebbe, Rabbi Schneerson, doesn’t!" <BR/>"I’m sure he does," said the rabbi. <BR/>"I’m willing to wager anything that he does not," said Mr. P. "In fact, I’ll say this: If the Rebbe states that he believes that the sun revolves around the earth, I will become a Torah-observant Jew and convince everyone I know to do the same!" <BR/>"Would you put that in writing?" challenged Rabbi R. <BR/>"No problem," said Mr. P.<BR/><BR/>see the Rebbe's response here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article.asp?AID=73253Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146712785059757982006-05-03T23:19:00.000-04:002006-05-03T23:19:00.000-04:00Never knew of that Yerushalmi. Thanks for pointin...Never knew of that Yerushalmi. Thanks for pointing it out!Romachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10899277362961329651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146712064793725152006-05-03T23:07:00.000-04:002006-05-03T23:07:00.000-04:00>> Cruelty in Halacha isn't defined by limited hum...>> Cruelty in Halacha isn't defined by limited human intellect, its defined by the rules the Rabbi's were given as to how to define the laws of Torah.<BR/><BR/>At least Heshy was ludicrous to the point of absurdity. You, LY, are positively scary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146694990756460212006-05-03T18:23:00.000-04:002006-05-03T18:23:00.000-04:00"1. The Darkei Moshe in Even Haezer Siman 20 quote..."1. The Darkei Moshe in Even Haezer Siman 20 quotes a Yerushalmi which quotes a pasuk in Tehilim which is the source of this Din. If this was just a chazaka who needs a pasuk in Tehillim, it is obvious."<BR/><BR/>- the posuk is necessary to tell you it's hadar dina. <BR/><BR/>- The posuk in question, "Ekra le-elokim elyon, le-kel goimar alei." The yerushalmi is taking le-kel goimar alei literaly. But what is god maskim to? You can understand this that the rbs"o is maskim to the beis din shel maata, to make her a besula again. <BR/> <BR/>- in general, the yerushalmi brings psukim for many, many things on the same dinim that the bavli learns misavra, and they probably should be interpreted as asmachtas, not as a derusha gemura. <BR/><BR/>- The point here is that if all the yerushalmi is saying is that the reality conforms to what beis din says, it's not necessary for the yerushalmi to say "v'nimlichu beis din" - the same thing is true on years the shana is not meuberes. Normally, besuloseha chozros in three years, 36 months. This time, it's chozros in 37 months. The yerushalmi is not stressing that it this time takes 37 months! RAther, it's saying, her status is changed, and she's already considered a beula. Now, nimlichu beis din, and it's changing back. <BR/><BR/>"2. That is not what the gemara said. The Gemara doesn't say chazaka, the gemara says it grows back."<BR/><BR/>see above<BR/><BR/> 2. In addition the Yerushalmi there talks about Simanim and gadlus, how the Simanim come later if Beis Din declares a leap year, again the Gemara talks about a Metzius"<BR/><BR/>#3 is a raaya that the pashtus is that we are discussing dinim, not chazaka.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146677760886431322006-05-03T13:36:00.000-04:002006-05-03T13:36:00.000-04:00My point of arguing is simply to defend the assume...<I>My point of arguing is simply to defend the assumed notion that science is automaticly correct.</I><BR/><BR/>Its never automatically correct. Science like anything else goes through refinement till it reaches its conclusion through some evidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146671217349854212006-05-03T11:46:00.000-04:002006-05-03T11:46:00.000-04:00blukeThe man is itself above nature, so natural la...bluke<BR/><BR/>The man is itself above nature, so natural laws cannot be applied to it. And, I do not even disagree with with your premise that someone somewhere might have defended mystical approach. But it certainly cannot be deemed a normative or pervasive principle in traditional Judaism.<BR/><BR/>Why don't the Rabbis just pasken more leniently on treifos and cause the diseases and injuries at their core to be irradicated? Can't their strictness be regarded as cruelty to the dying and invalid, as they can save lives and refuse to do so?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146649938409559282006-05-03T05:52:00.000-04:002006-05-03T05:52:00.000-04:00I expanded my comments here into a post on my blog...I expanded my comments here into a <A HREF="http://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2006/05/does-psak-of-beis-din-affect-reality.html" REL="nofollow">post</A> on my blog.blukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146648765240040102006-05-03T05:32:00.000-04:002006-05-03T05:32:00.000-04:00One of the mefrahim on the Yerushalmi there brings...One of the mefrahim on the Yerushalmi there brings another example that psak affects reality from the Tosefta in Rosh Hashana (1:10). The Tosefta assumes that the מן did not fall on Yom Tov. The Tosefta says that how long the מן that fell on evev Rosh Hashana lasted depended on the psak of Beis Din. If Beis Din made the 30th Rosh Hashana then the מן lasted 2 days (the 29th and Rosh Hashana). However, if Beis Din made Rosh Hashana on the 31st, then the מן had to last a third day (29,30 because it didn't fall because it could have been Yom Tov, and Rosh Hashana). Again, we see that the psak of Beis Din affected the reality of when the מן rotted away.blukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146637750547273262006-05-03T02:29:00.000-04:002006-05-03T02:29:00.000-04:00The Satan could be utilizing NASA to try to prove ...<I>The Satan could be utilizing NASA to try to prove the Rambam wrong.</I><BR/><BR/>You can't compare the two. I can see why falsifing the death of Moshe would be detremental for the Jews back then, but what significance does Rambam being wrong here have? So Rambam was wrong LY, get over it. It has no bearing on Torah Min Shamayim or anything else. Why are you fighting so hard to hold on to this? Rambam himself would have been more than happy to let his opinions go if it were proven wrong. Why can't you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146636204452280322006-05-03T02:03:00.000-04:002006-05-03T02:03:00.000-04:00You didn't answer the gemara nor the explicit lang...You didn't answer the gemara nor the explicit language of the Pnei Moshe. The gemara doesn't say chazaka, it states a physical reality. The Pnei Moshe explains the Yerushalmi (which is the simple pshat ) that nature agrees with teh Beis Din, how do you explain that?blukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146631250441473552006-05-03T00:40:00.000-04:002006-05-03T00:40:00.000-04:00blukeThere is no means to determine the matter of ...bluke<BR/><BR/>There is no means to determine the matter of her status conclusively. The metzius is of no relevance to the din. She can say this or that, he can say this or that. The only question is can we reasonably assume her status or not?<BR/><BR/>In the din of a motzi shem ra, the gemorra has to reinterpret the matter of the bedsheet for precisely this reason. Even the sheet is not proof of anything (Yaakov was fooled for instance), and this is the Torah's own example. "Kayom" is an impossible burden of proof. That is why we must make an assumption as to what she is or isn't. We can assume that a 3 year old is a virgin, and the gemorra merely adds gravy for the daykanim. You can even assume so if the year is m'ubar. It is melitza, not a statement of daas Torah.<BR/><BR/>But it raises a very good point. This is the level of proof that they are reduced to in order to defend the concept in tradition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146630912033839272006-05-03T00:35:00.000-04:002006-05-03T00:35:00.000-04:00Anonymous,Look at the Yerushalmi inside (Kesuvos 1...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Look at the Yerushalmi inside (Kesuvos 1:2) especially the Pnei Moshe. The Pnei Moshe writes: אף הטבע מסכמת עליהן. <I>Even nature agress with the psak.</I> This is explicit that the psak changes reality.blukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146627383326060052006-05-02T23:36:00.000-04:002006-05-02T23:36:00.000-04:00Anonymous,If it was a chazaka there would be no ne...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>If it was a chazaka there would be no need for a pasuk to be mechadesh the din that if they make a leap year, it would just work based on the chazaka. The pasuk is clearly teaching us that the physical facts change based on the psak.blukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146618101497216042006-05-02T21:01:00.000-04:002006-05-02T21:01:00.000-04:00blukeGood points all1. Ipcha Mistabra. I need a so...bluke<BR/>Good points all<BR/><BR/>1. Ipcha Mistabra. I need a source for a chazaka. Observed fact is obvious<BR/><BR/>2. Not muchrach. The rambam, in hilchos shchita, states that if the chachamim state that an animal is kosher, even if we see medically that it cannot live, than "efhar tichiya". But it is clear from the next siyif that he does not mean that this is fact, but only halachic chazaka. This is a similar overly medayek diyuk.<BR/><BR/>3. I will have to review the Yerushalmi there, but a betting man would again put his money on halachic chazaka rather than physical fact, and that these diyukim are not muchrach.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146610715878157682006-05-02T18:58:00.000-04:002006-05-02T18:58:00.000-04:00See the chinuch etc. on Lo Soser to see how we pas...See the chinuch etc. on Lo Soser to see how we pasken.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146590892730374182006-05-02T13:28:00.000-04:002006-05-02T13:28:00.000-04:00Thank goodness for people like lakewood yid...No o...Thank goodness for people like lakewood yid...<BR/><BR/>No one would believe these ideals still existed if not for his unabashed insistence.<BR/><BR/>The difficulty for even the modern othrodox out there who are watching this conversation unfold, is the realization that full adherence to the mesorah produces gedolim who spout nonreality, and require a flock of sheep ready to ingest the same. It makes the idea that the mesorah is a guideline to truth, all that much harder to swallow.Ben Avuyahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08814145983874592449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146589770516599572006-05-02T13:09:00.000-04:002006-05-02T13:09:00.000-04:00I had no idea this concept was still being dispute...I had no idea this concept was still being disputed. I took it as a given that the sun is the center of the solar system. what an eye opener. I feel like I just walked back 300 years.FrumGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06938604279533529932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146588346168576672006-05-02T12:45:00.000-04:002006-05-02T12:45:00.000-04:00A few points:1. The Darkei Moshe in Even Haezer Si...A few points:<BR/><BR/>1. The Darkei Moshe in Even Haezer Siman 20 quotes a Yerushalmi which quotes a pasuk in Tehilim which is the source of this Din. If this was just a chazaka who needs a pasuk in Tehillim, it is obvious.<BR/>2. That is not what the gemara said. The Gemara doesn't say chazaka, the gemara says it grows back. 2. In addition the Yerushalmi there talks about Simanim and gadlus, how the Simanim come later if Beis Din declares a leap year, again the Gemara talks about a Metziusblukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146568712943965832006-05-02T07:18:00.000-04:002006-05-02T07:18:00.000-04:00blukeWhen the gemara discusses whether the hymen g...bluke<BR/><BR/>When the gemara discusses whether the hymen grows back or not, it is referring to halachic chazaka, not physical fact. Until age 3, we can ASSUME that the hymen will grow back and that therefore, we make that assumption in affected areas of law. According to mystical approach, they would say that the fact that they paskened age three causes the hymen to grow back for an extra month. That isn't how halacha works. It does not matter if the giorl is a virgin or not, only that we can assume that she is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146555203426427282006-05-02T03:33:00.000-04:002006-05-02T03:33:00.000-04:00>Because what reason does NASA have to lie about s...<I>>Because what reason does NASA have to lie about something like that?<BR/><BR/>Why of course, to disprove the Rambam.</I><BR/><BR/>Wow. That may have been the most ridiculous comment I've ever seen... and I read DovBear!Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146545133269972422006-05-02T00:45:00.000-04:002006-05-02T00:45:00.000-04:00I refer you to observantastronomer.blogspot.com wh...I refer you to observantastronomer.blogspot.com where he discusses the matter at length.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146545025636943482006-05-02T00:43:00.000-04:002006-05-02T00:43:00.000-04:00ShragaWelcome to 2006. Here in our century, we ca...Shraga<BR/><BR/>Welcome to 2006. Here in our century, we can show that the solar system is heliocentric, independent of the theory of relativity, using pendula, lense thirring, the fact that earthquakes like the Dec '04 monster can affect the rotation of the Earth (or would you say that a local event affected the entire universe, in contravention of the theory of relativity?). Even the Ptolemaic model on which the Rambam based himself, was not geocentric. It never worked with observation until they adjusted the position of the Earth away from the center. Interestingly, the Rambam cares about sustaining the observed facts. He doesn't claim that his halchas change the reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146540994942347322006-05-01T23:36:00.000-04:002006-05-01T23:36:00.000-04:00It is not a legal definition but a physical one. T...It is not a legal definition but a physical one. The gemara says that the physical fact of whether the hymen will grow back or not changes based on whether the Beis Din declared a leap year or not.blukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03774763780910614203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1146536404369569182006-05-01T22:20:00.000-04:002006-05-01T22:20:00.000-04:00Why of course, to disprove the Rambam.Do you serio...<I>Why of course, to disprove the Rambam.</I><BR/><BR/>Do you seriously believe that NASA exists just to prove the Rambam wrong??? That the whole concept of the Copernican view of the solar system was just to prove the Rambam wrong????<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.com