tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post2246203740847521118..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Guest Post: Why Gedolim FailBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-48542610471077955972008-02-25T02:43:00.000-05:002008-02-25T02:43:00.000-05:00Wah!! Boo-Hoo! Our poor, poor 'gedolim' are pooped...Wah!! Boo-Hoo! Our poor, poor 'gedolim' are pooped! <BR/><BR/>If they're so overbooked, why don't they wave their magic daas torah wand and tell their simpering stooges to use the brains god gave the jews and STOP CALLING.<BR/><BR/>... but that would be bad for business. Right?<BR/><BR/>Gedolim fail because they promote a system that elevates dependent nincompoops over productive achievers.and so it shall be...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14938399154970068213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-80049667844045860502008-02-24T07:09:00.000-05:002008-02-24T07:09:00.000-05:00What you have described is a good picture of an im...What you have described is a good picture of an important aspect of the issue. I do not agree that this is the only issue, but it is definitely a big problem.<BR/><BR/>The root of the problem is the lack of bureaucratization (as first devoped by Max Weber). There is no organazational structure for filtering out the real needs from the fake, or for ranking the urgency, or for directing people to the rabbi who can help them the best.<BR/><BR/>I have a simple suggestion for creating a substitute for a bureaucracy. The big-name rabbis should not accept anyone without a letter from their personal/area rabbi. If the problem is so pressing that he cannot deal with it, let him send his congregant to someone better, otherwise, his congregant can suffice with his answer. (Hardly perfect, but I think its better than what we have now). For askanus issues, there should be a mid-level committee which reviews all ideas, and decides if (and to who) they should be forwarded.<BR/>Will good ideas and important needs be missed with such a system? Yes. But alot more are being missed now, and without even making an effort to make sure that the important issues will be addressed.<BR/><BR/>This will also give people a chance to evaluate their own rabbis better, and to get better feedback about the big names.Binyaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258379827161517927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-40464260949712433932008-02-24T04:12:00.000-05:002008-02-24T04:12:00.000-05:00The difference between Chareidism and Modern Ortho...The difference between Chareidism and Modern Orthodoxy in the last 60 years has been the very degree of autonomy mentioned in this excellent post. To wit, Chareidi leadership and authority has become extremely centralized amongst a limited number of Roshei Yeshivah and political figures, leaving local rabbonim with little to no authority to pasken. Why ask your local guy a shailoh when you can ask the Minchas Pinchas or some such?<BR/>The alternative is Modern Orthodoxy's emphasis on local autonomy. In theory, the local rabbi who knows his congregants is expected to handle their questions and issues, researching the liberature as needed to support his answers. Unfortunately, the fall out has been the Artscroll Effect. Why ask the rabbi when you can open up Rabbeinu Scroll's piece on the subject and find out the real answer in there? Total autonomy vs total centrality. Neither works.<BR/><BR/>Really, the system should be set up to resemble what happens in modern medicine. A patient first presents to the primary care physician, either the family doctor or the ER doctor. If that physician can handle the problem, he does. If not, he refers on to the specialist. Again, if it's too hard for the specialist, the sub-specialist gets it, and so on. <BR/><BR/>Imagine a system like that in Orthodoxy. Your rabbi handles the basic stuff and anything else he might have some expertise in, leaving the big talmidei chachamim to handle the complicated issues and the bigger hashkafic problems.<BR/><BR/>There is only one glitch to this proposal - have you ever met a Jew who was happy with what his family doctor told him? They always want to see a specialist!Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-59474576823973650812008-02-24T00:52:00.000-05:002008-02-24T00:52:00.000-05:00Sorry, I'm an outsider (non-charedi), but what wou...Sorry, I'm an outsider (non-charedi), but what would be the problem if "there won’t be even be a minyan to accept more directions or Daas Torah." I think this "epidemic" of teens and young adults "going off the derech" is people actually waking up and thinking for themselves and realizing that DT has very little to no grounding in serious halachic thought. So, this statement actually seems like a good thing.<BR/><BR/>The rest just boils down to the same godol apologetics that get tossed around every time pple express opposing viewpoints to gedolim: It wasn't really THEIR fault, it's their protectors/assistants, etc. <BR/><BR/>Sorry, R' Eliyashiv knew/knows exactly what he was doing when he sought to take down the Israeli Chief Rabbinate but installing charedi lowlifes that no self respecting religious Zionist would listen to, hold no water with charedim and redouble their efforts to push away secular Israelis. Kol Hakavod for dividing Israeli even further! (And this scheme did not arise because R.E was too busy fending off a thousand questions to realize what was going on)Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-23895487465638102212008-02-23T23:14:00.000-05:002008-02-23T23:14:00.000-05:00Agree, a very good post. I see part of the proble...Agree, a very good post. I see part of the problem as the consumerist attitude too pervasive in klal, a competition in "name brands." Why should one settle for a psak from Rabbi X when Rabbi Y's name has more cachet? No one insists that Bill Gates personally be the one to answer a question on how to use an aspect of Word. Not so when it comes to gedolim. <BR/><BR/>But if we are being perfectly open and honest, let's also admit that some of these "gedolim" have put themselves into the positions they now find untenable at times. More than a few have adopted the "all things to all people" attitude and if they find that they can't maintain this position, the refuah is in their hands. Say "no."ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-86770753765584202902008-02-23T20:50:00.000-05:002008-02-23T20:50:00.000-05:00YG - Very good post. The model of Yisro was brilli...YG - Very good post. The model of Yisro was brilliant in so many ways, yet nobody seems interested in that - everyone likes to run straight to the top. The US legal system is structured better than our current Rabbinical one.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-49457146281923582562008-02-23T20:22:00.000-05:002008-02-23T20:22:00.000-05:00cLitvak-I don't propose in any to abolish Gedolim....cLitvak-<BR/><BR/>I don't propose in any to abolish Gedolim. On the contrary, they'll be bigger, having more time to learn and to ponder their actions.<BR/>Of course, if they go to fewer events, there will be fewer photo ops... <BR/><BR/>Yossi GinzbergYossi Ginzberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08322238481426477888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-66542354754012582642008-02-23T16:33:00.000-05:002008-02-23T16:33:00.000-05:00I think part of the problem is the fact that so ma...I think part of the problem is the fact that so many have given up their right to think for themselves (or their children) without approval from some Rav.<BR/><BR/>The Orthodox religious-right have become so ingrained with allowing Rabbeim to dictate every aspect of their lives, is it any wonder they seek approval for any and all endeavors - from tzedakah to choosing a yeshivah for their child (whom this Rebbe has never met) or agreeing to a shidduch.<BR/><BR/>So rather than go to their own local Rabbi, they go for the big, Yichus names.Pesky Settlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03077745747562609723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-4555008069751972772008-02-22T19:40:00.000-05:002008-02-22T19:40:00.000-05:00I took this from Wikipedia:Avi Shafran, the spokes...I took this from Wikipedia:<BR/><BR/><I>Avi Shafran, the spokesman for the American Hareidi organization Agudath Israel of America, explains the concept as follows:,</I><BR/><BR/> <I>Da'at Torah is not some Jewish equivalent to the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility. Not only can rabbis make mistakes of judgment, there is an entire tractate of the Talmud, Horiut, predicated on the assumption that they can, that even the Sanhedrin is capable of erring, even in halachic matters. What Da'at Torah means, simply put, those most imbued with Torah-knowledge and who have internalized a large degree of the perfection of values and refinement of character that the Torah idealizes are thereby rendered particularly, indeed extraordinarily, qualified to offer an authentic Jewish perspective on matters of import to Jews - just as expert doctors are those most qualified (though still fallible, to be sure) to offer medical advice. [1]</I><BR/><BR/>I think the problem is as with other religions, those in charge, those looked up to, those in a position to make decisions, etc., need to keep the importance and sanctity of their task and responsibilities, the need for humility and reserved careful thought in mind.<BR/><BR/>I think that's how the recent sheitle mess and the concert ban and all that come about.<BR/><BR/>And you know those people remarked on who delayed getting through to the rabbi when needed? Many are precisely surrounded. With a veritable wall of veneration and respect that sometimes isn't questioning or skeptical enough.<BR/><BR/>No matter how saintly the person in question is, humility on their part would demand that they'd want their associates to double-check for them to help them stay on the right course and not become yes-men adoring anything that crossed their minds. After long enough of that, well, people forget the importance of choosing their decisions and battles very carefully.-suitepotato-https://www.blogger.com/profile/04567987879881511630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-10733648000705539012008-02-22T16:24:00.000-05:002008-02-22T16:24:00.000-05:00Hey, but if we follow Yossi's advice how will the ...Hey, but if we follow Yossi's advice how will the Yated, Hamodia, Der Yid, etc., fill their centerfolds with 'gedolim pictures' ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com