tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post4490731887649657584..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: I Think We Need To Retire The Middah Of Kanouis (Zealotry)BrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-8319239822192792722009-03-02T11:37:00.000-05:002009-03-02T11:37:00.000-05:00The paths of the TORAH may be pleasantness and pea...The paths of the TORAH may be pleasantness and peace.<BR/><BR/>But the paths of the CHUMROT ... not so much!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-72568975334527808712009-02-27T10:28:00.000-05:002009-02-27T10:28:00.000-05:00Wolf, many frei Jews (probably most) wouldn't beco...Wolf, many frei Jews (probably most) wouldn't become observant in the sense that you mean it, even if it were presented to us in a warm, friendly, nonjudgmental manner. Most of us have rational reasons for not being Orthodox. It isn't (usually) because someone was mean to us.<BR/><BR/>As for the rest of it - I agree with your other commenters. These acts of violence aren't motivated by a misguided desire to bring people closer to observance. You're a nice guy; I think you may have trouble conceptualizing that people behave this way out of fear, solely to protect their belief system, and/or to intimidate others (often the young) into conformance.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-76445447841891617902009-02-25T19:54:00.000-05:002009-02-25T19:54:00.000-05:00I think you and the commentators have the motive w...I think you and the commentators have the motive wrong. The purpose of the violence is not to reform its target. And only in some cases is it the result of a bully who takes pleasure in controlling or hurting others. The reason behind it, and certainly the reason it is tolerated in those portions of the community in which it is tolerated, is that it is thought to inspire a devotion to high standards of mitzvah observance in the perpetrators. <BR/><BR/>I do not understand this view, and i certainly don't agree with it. But if you are going to criticize the violence on the grounds that it is counterproductive (as opposed to its being assur and/or morally wrong), you have to address the intended purpose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-50004155853420065572009-02-25T18:40:00.000-05:002009-02-25T18:40:00.000-05:00Anon,Read the post. Even when punishment is prope...Anon,<BR/><BR/>Read the post. Even when punishment is properly meted out by a bais din, it doesn't inspire people to keep the mitzvos.<BR/><BR/>In any event, there are two major rebuttals to your argument:<BR/><BR/>1. We *don't* stone people to death for it and, even when we did, it was done in such a way that the death penalty was carried out so rarely. Heck, in order to be executed according to halacha, the person practically has to want to die.<BR/><BR/>2. You can't compare a punishment meted out by a properly constituted bais din to the vigilante actions of individuals.<BR/><BR/>The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-81285220618880038962009-02-25T18:36:00.000-05:002009-02-25T18:36:00.000-05:00How do we get around the fact that the Torah manda...How do we get around the fact that the Torah mandates the death penalty for gathering twigs on Shabbos?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-27496787242833161602009-02-25T01:52:00.000-05:002009-02-25T01:52:00.000-05:00"There is the Rasha in the hagaddah, whose teeth w..."There is the Rasha in the hagaddah, whose teeth we encouraged to knock out. (Not exactly the same thing, but still there is the use of violance.)"<BR/><BR/>Mistranslation. Look at the shoresh of the word.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-74852214521205698832009-02-24T15:25:00.000-05:002009-02-24T15:25:00.000-05:00I agree with Menachem - it's all about power and c...I agree with Menachem - it's all about power and control and money. They are not even the slightest bit interested in persuading those they harass and intimidate to be truly Torah observant for its own sake. They are only interested in driving off people who will not submit to their authority, and to increase the geographic area of their little fiefdom by driving out them out and filling up their places with those over whom they have control. <BR/><BR/>I think if you asked them directly, you would find that even they admit they would not trust someone who only adopted their stringencies because they were threatened with violence. They know that does not cause true compliance. They would be forever worried about what such a person might be doing behind their back. So the intent is not to have them adopt a coerced conformity, it is to "ethnically cleanse" (so to speak) their area to get rid of everyone who isn't a "real" Jew (a "real" Jew by their definition being only those who will submit to their personal authority).Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-32489917090556654622009-02-24T10:29:00.000-05:002009-02-24T10:29:00.000-05:00Pinchas lost his right to be assume the mantle of ...Pinchas lost his right to be assume the mantle of Moshe's leadership because zealotry -- rush to judgement -- is a questionable trait. It is almost always abused, and fails to inspire the masses. At best, it's a dire, one-time tactic, not a strategy. And it's usually wrong. <BR/><BR/>Anyone who presumes to be a sincere zealot for anything but his own religious practice is arrogant, selfish, deeply unhappy with himself -- and a criminal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-55521200878345781422009-02-23T22:52:00.000-05:002009-02-23T22:52:00.000-05:00Anon,When you say "that using force to compel the ...Anon,<BR/><BR/>When you say "that using force to compel the performance of mitzvos is an established tradition in Judaisim." I think you are missing the point. The point of malkot is not to inspire mitzvah observance it is specifically to punish those who PURPOSEFULLY and KNOWINGLY violate the law despite a detailed description of the incorrectness of their action, presumably in a civil, even kindly manner, and the punishment they will receive. Malkot is the last ditch effort to turn an ingrained sinner around.<BR/><BR/>And regarding Hashem holding the mountain over Klal Yisroel's heads, most agree that image is a parable. It was meant to show that Bnei Yisroel had lost their free choice because of the miracles they had witnessed--it is lamenting the fact, not glorifying it. This, in fact, was the reason we had to "re-accept" the oral torah at Purim. <BR/><BR/>But yes, it is quite easy to **misinterpret** these symbols and parables, so your overall point has validity. I think you should just be more careful with the way you present your information.ZachMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01017744333969625304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-993405616304367952009-02-23T22:36:00.000-05:002009-02-23T22:36:00.000-05:00Not that I agree with their policy, but I know tha...Not that I agree with their policy, but I know that the reasoning behind many people’s approach of forcing observance is as a stop-gap measure in order to keep younger people in line. They figure that during years when people are supposedly more susceptible to being influenced in a certain direction, they need to be forced to stay on the straight and narrow, irrespective of how bad it might look or how resentful they might be about it. Later on, they figure, when the kids are older and more mature, then they will not have to be forced and will hopefully be able to appreciate the beauty and importance of torah and mitzvos. Or at least they will simply be trapped by their family commitments (after all, they need to get married young and have kids right away, no?) and/or the expectations of frum society, which will prevent them from straying. But in the meantime, they don’t want to risk the possibility that the person will be unduly influenced and lost forever. <BR/><BR/>I know for a fact that many people live by this policy when necessary.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-18266632163645988302009-02-23T17:17:00.000-05:002009-02-23T17:17:00.000-05:00Excellent post. However, I don't agree with your ...Excellent post. However, I don't agree with your conclusion. These fundamentalists (Jewish, Moslem, etc. there's no difference) don't give a rat's tushie about increasing observance. <BR/><BR/>It's all about power. Usually related to, and you can any shrink about this, repressed sexual aggression. These creeps are more akin to schoolyard bullies than to any true concept of "Kanoyis". <BR/><BR/>So the rationale that they are actually driving people away from Yiddishkeit is completely lost on them. Ironically, the only way to get people like them to comply is through the very punishment you advocate against. They must be made to realize that there is an immediate consequence to their actions. Ideally, this would be via local law enforcement, but in the absence of that, the greater community must act against them forcefully. (We've had some success with this in Beit Shemesh.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-82901918229558464222009-02-23T16:53:00.000-05:002009-02-23T16:53:00.000-05:00You bring many good points. Playing devil's advoca...You bring many good points. Playing devil's advocate, I would remind you that using force to compel the performance of mitzvos is an established tradition in Judaisim. There is the use of legal compulsion in ancient Israel, which you mentioned. There is the midrash that says Hashem held a mountain over klal Yisroel and ordered them to keep the mitzvos, even though had already volounteered to do so. There is the Rasha in the hagaddah, whose teeth we encouraged to knock out. (Not exactly the same thing, but still there is the use of violance.) There is Pinchus, who can be said to be the archetype of kanouis. The midrash seems to relish describing his actions in gory detail.<BR/><BR/>Given the precedent, is it so surprising that some of the less forgiving (and perhaps more simple-minded, as the previous commenter suggests) members of the community feel that violence against those who violate their sense of what is proper is a mitzvah.<BR/><BR/>I think an interesting question is why some people feel the need to compel others to agree with them.<BR/><BR/>G*3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-80723375488809761852009-02-23T15:31:00.000-05:002009-02-23T15:31:00.000-05:00Complex approaches, eg. reasoned dialogue, are for...Complex approaches, eg. reasoned dialogue, are for complex minds.<BR/>Simple approaches, eg. throwing stones at "the other" are for simple minds.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.com