tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post4520910156597025186..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: Look In The Mirror Rabbi Birnbaum.BrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-15943199953980687212014-01-20T22:31:18.960-05:002014-01-20T22:31:18.960-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Moe Ginsburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18218125448306309596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-41777768237035700112014-01-20T22:29:29.140-05:002014-01-20T22:29:29.140-05:00"Very simply, we recognize Chareidim as legit...<i>"Very simply, we recognize Chareidim as legitimate in terms of their observance of Judaism. Yes, we may not choose to lead such a lifestyle ourselves, but that doesn't mean that we don’t think that learning Torah, restricted modes of dress or following the strictest possible interpretations of halacha are bad things – they’re just not what we do."</i><br /><br />The Reform could say the exact same about the Orthodox.<br /><br /><i>"It’s too bad, however, that you don’t see the same tolerance from Rabbi Birnbaum’s community."</i><br /><br />Nor do you see it from the MO community.<br /><br /><i>"While we on the left may have complaints on the way the Chareidi community does things, we don't seek to delegitimize the movement. "</i><br /><br />Chariei isn't a movement. There really is no such thing as a "Chareidi." There was never any beginning to Chareidism (other than Har Sinai) or any minhagim for "Chareidim". MO otoh is a movement with a beginning.<br /><br /><i>"magine the following scenario: a nineteen year old Modern Orthodox youth, about to move out and embark on his own, goes to his parents and says in a serious voice “We need to talk.” He then sits them down on the couch and says “I’ve decided to become more frum... What would the parents’ reaction be? Would they weep and cry and ask themselves the soul-searching question of “where did we go wrong?” The answer, of course, is no... On the other hand, many Chareidi parents practically insider their kids "off the Derech" if they wore a kippah s'ruga or didn't keep the strictest standard of halacha or even believed that there was value in secular learning for its own sake..."</i><br /><br />Bad comparison. <b>As you admitted</b> one direction is becoming more frum (MO-->Chareidi) while the other isn't.<br /><br /><i>"It’s ironic that Rabbi Birnbaum talks about intolerance of the left for the right when, in fact, the reverse is far more common."</i><br /><br />That is not factually correct. Nor do your one-sided anecdotes (which for the most part are media exaggerations) prove anything.<br /><br />Your other one-sided anecdotes (further down from the above quote such as not counting MO for a minyan) are rare examples and very very far from prevalent. You are dead wrong about it being "pervasive in the Chareidi world".<br /><br /><i>"We've all heard the expression that there are shivim panim laTorah."</i><br /><br />Not every "movement" is one of the shivim panim laTorah. The Conservative movement also claims to be one of the shivim panim laTorah. (This point is a general point and not directed at any particular movement [other than Conservative].)<br /><br /><i>"Until the Chareidi community learns to accept those on the left as legitimate"</i><br /><br />They do consider them legitimate. Yet misguided on various religious issues.<br /><br />Do you wish to deny us the right to consider certain religious practices as being misguided?<br /><br /><i>"Can you bring yourself to say that Modern Orthodox Jews are fully Torah-observant Jews and that the movement is a perfectly valid form of Judaism? Can you bring yourself to publicly state that there is nothing wrong with living a Modern Orthodox lifestyle? "</i><br /><br />You are insisting that we recognize MO as not doing things that are incorrect al pi Torah. But we believe there are things MO espouses that are wrong al pi Torah. And you cannot demand that we change our views and no longer take that principled stand. It is a principled stand; it is our right to take that principled stand; and you ought to recognize the legitimacy of us taking the principled stand that the MO espouses things that are incorrect.<br />Moe Ginsburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18218125448306309596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-42392589862549946362013-08-09T14:05:42.060-04:002013-08-09T14:05:42.060-04:00Are you sure we read the same piece?Are you sure we read the same piece?yoni the yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719222967106768793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-86414503501800705362013-08-05T10:53:31.440-04:002013-08-05T10:53:31.440-04:00popa said...
> I don't think such a tone is...popa said...<br />> I don't think such a tone is at all prevalent in the yeshivish media.<br /><br />I picked up one of the frum newspapers in my parents’ house shabbos afternoon and was treated to a chassidishe maaseh about someone who was told that, because of the way he had treated someone, heaven had decreed that his rational mind would be compromised and he would begin to question the torah and his community.<br /><br />The attitude prevalent in the yeshivish world and its media is that there is something wrong with people who don’t think like they do. <br /><br />While I think that the yeshivish world is wrong about many things, they think that there is something wrong with those on their left.<br /><br />How’s that for tone? <br />G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-33470475566806409222013-08-04T22:24:45.050-04:002013-08-04T22:24:45.050-04:00I'm going to take issue with just one point yo...I'm going to take issue with just one point you made--you said that a stereotypical situation of a kid saying to his parents that he's leaving their background:<br />"“I’ve decided to become more frum. I’m going to learn more, I’m not going to have a television or cable in my home. I’m going to keep Cholov Yisroel and dress only in standard yeshivish clothing.”<br />That's really sad that you described the difference between Hareidi and MO/dati leumi as "learning more torah, not watching TV and cable, and eating cholov yisroel" -- I am in Yeshiva in Israel and plan to stay there for a few more years before entering whatever profession it is i will enter. I will not have TV or cable in my house, and probably will use internet Rimon or some equivalent when I have kids using the internet. <br />The differences are not in levels of observance. Chareidim are not "more" religious, they have decided to be differently religious on whatever grounds they have. The differences are much deeper and include God's place in the world, man's actions in general, the relationship of Man/God commandments to Man/Man commandments, and more. I'm sorry that those external things have become central to the difference between the communities.<br />And just BTW if my kids decided to become Chareidi i would ask myself "where did I go wrong" because I do not believe in anything they believe in, and (maybe this will be different when i have kids) I cannot live with the Chilul Hashem of not going to the army and not working (Rambam was completely proved correct in all of his derogations of the non-working lifestyle) because I feel as if it's a complete rejection of the entire Torah. <br />I think in general as a society we need to be welcoming though and ready to let people to live according to what they believe. It saddens me that Chareidim are Chareidim just as it saddens me that Chilonim are Chilonim, but I respect their right as human beings to think and come to their own conclusions even if I reject them fully. That's where we need to find our Ahavat Chinam. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138390421784518812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-65210201238515098002013-08-02T18:35:50.824-04:002013-08-02T18:35:50.824-04:00I read the article. I didn't find it the way y...I read the article. I didn't find it the way you say. <br /><br />I think the article rightly criticizes the tone that is prevalent in the MO community now. And rightly points out why such criticism is inappropriate. <br /><br />And I don't think such a tone is at all prevalent in the yeshivish media. <br /><br />Fine, so you have some issues with the chareidi community. Ok, go for it, have your issues, right a blog about it. But there is nothing wrong with Birnbaum's piece, and very much wrong with the tenor from the center we have been seeing for the past several months.popanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-84771714033304530742013-08-02T18:03:29.344-04:002013-08-02T18:03:29.344-04:00Tesyaa- do you have a blog? I enjoy your comments,...Tesyaa- do you have a blog? I enjoy your comments, and I'd like to read more of your stuffFor Realnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-6219011885531745692013-08-02T16:12:59.918-04:002013-08-02T16:12:59.918-04:00well, maybe your uncle was being brainwashed by NC...well, maybe your uncle was being brainwashed by NCSY or a similar influence. What non-orthodox kid wakes up and asks to go to yeshiva?tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-17797497772406980662013-08-02T16:07:40.781-04:002013-08-02T16:07:40.781-04:00"What would the parents’ reaction be? Would ..."What would the parents’ reaction be? Would they weep and cry and ask themselves the soul-searching question of “where did we go wrong?” The answer, of course, is no."<br /><br />when my uncle asked his parents to send him to a yeshiva instead of his PS, my grandparents took him to a therapist. azigranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-1692168553517086352013-08-02T15:22:37.558-04:002013-08-02T15:22:37.558-04:00Excellent response, Wolf!
[ The saddest thing, is...Excellent response, Wolf!<br /><br />[ The saddest thing, is all the suffering happening in many Charedi communities, due to the increasing poverty and extremism. I was in Bnei Brak, and the huge efforts made to raise tzedakah for the poor, I also saw the tremendous need for tzedakah.]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-53289187555477012742013-08-02T14:21:56.363-04:002013-08-02T14:21:56.363-04:00Look, I'm going to tell you something you migh...Look, I'm going to tell you something you might not like. I'm from a big Jewish community. The only people who'd be considered "classically modern orthodox" (the huge cable tv, uncovered hair, very tzionistic) are all over the age of 55. Their children either went more chareidi. or totally went into something that looks like my grandparents Conservative practices but without driving on shabbos. The super-chareidi people who are over 55 here also had kids that didn't do what they did. Their kids went to college and listened to non-jewish music and threw out their potato-sack dresses. So the group of people I'd say are about 30 and are either less-chareidi-than-their-parents or more-chareidi-than-classic-mo have merged and formed the most dominant group of people here. They are a bunch of people without a name, who believe in keeping the mitzvos and paying their own bills, people who don't like politics and just focus on what they're doing. This whole debate is frankly irrelevant to where I liveFor Realnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-8932510057363727352013-08-02T14:03:16.478-04:002013-08-02T14:03:16.478-04:00Very well put.
-LFDVery well put.<br />-LFDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com