tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post5038434604324220917..comments2023-10-30T08:40:59.016-04:00Comments on Wolfish Musings: It's The Shidduch System That Objectifies WomenBrooklynWolfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-29120715606530032452012-05-31T16:45:44.557-04:002012-05-31T16:45:44.557-04:00thanks so much for posting this article. as someon...thanks so much for posting this article. as someone who is at an age where the shidduch system applies I really appreciate how well you articulate the issues with the system. About a year ago I was thinking about going into shidduchim and I mentioned this to one of my rebbetzins, the only advice I got was to get a hair cut, contacts, start wearing makeup, invest in a new wardrobe etc. I quickly realised the system was not for me. <br />I know I'm pretty but there's not way I could pass an arbitrary vetting process. <br />I went back and read the article, it's pretty constent with what I was taught in seminary. Including the part about plastic surgery. And I think it comes from a few places. There's just a general trend of women in thier twenties to wear less makeups than say the 70's or 80's which is when someone who has a son of marriageable age would be dating and its quite possible these mothers are comparing these girls to thier experiences in dating. <br />And I think what's even worse, is the nefarious need of the more orthodox communities to conform utterly and completely. Even to the point of having a narrow standard of how a woman can look to be attractive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-9632467705097589452012-05-03T10:21:24.739-04:002012-05-03T10:21:24.739-04:00Please check out our new blog, all about the world...Please check out our new blog, all about the world of shidduchim!<br /><br /><a href="http://yiddishecup.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The Yiddishe Cup</a><br /><br />Let us know what you think!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17142151279812978020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-46441526651454443022012-05-01T18:07:16.389-04:002012-05-01T18:07:16.389-04:00Just to focus on one narrow issue: why would a mot...Just to focus on one narrow issue: why would a mother know what a son thinks is attractive? <br /><br />It seems to me that the whole matter is so visual and idiosyncratic that anyone's guess as to who anyone else will find attractive is not likely to be useful.Woodrowhttp://woodrowconservadox.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-35129244196695091432012-04-26T16:17:49.854-04:002012-04-26T16:17:49.854-04:00>I loved Garnel's "Artscroll family&qu...>I loved Garnel's "Artscroll family" naming and description.<<br /><br />Anyone else notice how 95%+ of the kids drawn in frum magazines or books have blond, re, or brown hair (and usually blue eyes). What's up with that?<br /><br />Shades of Hitler?dovynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-58021723791894621742012-03-30T10:57:54.751-04:002012-03-30T10:57:54.751-04:00In the frum world, there’s certainly an unreasonab...In the frum world, there’s certainly an unreasonable sense of entitlement to marry women 30 and under<br /><br />You’ve got some very, uh, ordinary men (i.e. balding, fat, not particularly witty, wealthy or charismatic) over 35 (often WAY over) who for some reason---they’re in yeshiva, they're working, they want to have “many” children---are allowed to feel they should only deign to go out with much younger, more accomplished/good-looking/charismatic women.JRShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316508535505958540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-52641365676092407062012-03-30T10:43:17.084-04:002012-03-30T10:43:17.084-04:00GI said <<< The boys… believe they'r...GI said <<< The boys… believe they're entitled to women who are physically perfect….. the girls are taught to expect the next godol hador >>><br />I agree with most of your statement, but the above is not so accurate. As everyone keeps saying, it's a 'boy's market': the "boys" (if only they were expected to be men) all have long lists of girls' names to be looked into; the glrls, OTOH, are lucky to be given a name or two. So the boys can afford to meet with only the thinnest, prettiest, "best" girls.<br />The girls, OTOH, are forced---if not consciously, then by a combination of market forces, circumstance, maybe even a touch of innate feminine wisdom---to be somewhat more flexible. Yes, they're all taught to go for a talmid chochom---but in practice, the only criteria---in the boys' or the girls' yeshivas---for being put in approximately this category is that the boy be in yeshiva. Unless it's all changed drastically in the last 20 years, boys in bais medrash are not tested, held to any standard of productivity, punctuality, intellectual or ethical accomplishment.<br />So you've got a lot of sincere, intellegent, pretty girls--some of them even fairly accomplished in their jobs----going out with a bunch of schmos whose goal for the day is getting to seder before 10 AM. (long-term goal: obtaining a new suit & perfectly matched tie at the Garage).<br />In sympaty to my own gender, some of the girls--having been totally indocrinated---won't give any guy a chance who doesn't totally, completely fit the image---i.e. they'll sooner go out with one of the under-achievers described above, no questions asked, long as he's in yeshiva----than with a serious, professional working guy who learns---seriously---1.5 hours a night.JRShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316508535505958540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-78380883425898378572012-03-27T10:49:14.794-04:002012-03-27T10:49:14.794-04:00BTW, Wolf, can you do something about the letters ...<i>BTW, Wolf, can you do something about the letters you have to type in to prove you're not a robot and get something posted. I'm not a robot and there's often a letter or two that isn't clear.</i><br /><br />I'm afraid not. That's something that's under Google's control, not mine.<br /><br />Normally, I'd get rid of it, but I found that without it, the comments become filled with spam.<br /><br />The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-76892362613088972032012-03-27T00:43:11.215-04:002012-03-27T00:43:11.215-04:00Ksil,
I meant unreasonable sense of entitlement by...Ksil,<br />I meant unreasonable sense of entitlement by non-frum women. Frum women don't have an unreasonable sense of entitlement.<br /><br />BTW, Wolf, can you do something about the letters you have to type in to prove you're not a robot and get something posted. I'm not a robot and there's often a letter or two that isn't clear.Ichabod Chrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-62077087188948477102012-03-26T10:40:19.647-04:002012-03-26T10:40:19.647-04:00ichabod, what does this mean? "an unreasonabl...ichabod, what does this mean? "an unreasonable sense of entitlement among women"<br /><br />also, my experience is that many single men (secular), 30-40 years old, have ZERO interest in getting married, but only want to play the field, and those that do get married, do so reluctantly. again, only anectdotale, but it seems to be widespread (at least in new york). mah sh'ein kein, by the women, in the same age bracket - they WANT to get married, and move to long island...asap. thus, crisisksilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-2265593131475003462012-03-25T10:53:08.099-04:002012-03-25T10:53:08.099-04:00*frum world (not "drum")*frum world (not "drum")Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-17753689260979418532012-03-25T10:51:52.721-04:002012-03-25T10:51:52.721-04:00This Halberstam doesn't represent the drum wor...This Halberstam doesn't represent the drum world -- or anyone besides herself and her own vanities for that matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-45340800274085878922012-03-25T03:12:46.373-04:002012-03-25T03:12:46.373-04:00Ichabod,
I agree with you that the shidduch crisi...Ichabod,<br /><br />I agree with you that the shidduch crisis in the secular world is due to feminism. However, I am looking at it from a different perspective. This crisis usually hits educated women who for various reasons haven't found their mate by the time they are 30. (after that, the chance of getting married diminishes sharply with every year.) At this point, these women tend to be very successful in their careers and want somebody equally successful. What they find is that most men their age either settled down, many still want to play the field and very many are still finding themselves and voluntarily not employed full time. I can't vouch for every woman's feeling of entitlement, but from what I hear the the demands for most women are rather tame: single,kind, loyal, with interest in kids and marriage and gainfully employed. These women claim that there aren't that many men out there fitting that description.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-3970868417556565612012-03-25T01:58:13.847-04:002012-03-25T01:58:13.847-04:00Wolf,
Glad to see you're posting again. I agre...Wolf,<br />Glad to see you're posting again. I agree with Subwife that there's the equivalent of a shidduch crisis in the non-frum world, but I think much of it's due to feminism, the legal risks men take in getting married, and an unreasonable sense of entitlement among women 30 and under. <br />Also I think Mrs. Halberstam's article illustrates one of the problems. She's shocked that women didn't wear makeup. <br />I don't know why women have this insane idea that they need makeup. (I don't mean lotions and skin protections, I mean the stuff that has color to it.) A lot of men don't like visible makeup because it looks artificial, and suggests that men are idiots who can't tell the real from the artificial.Ichabod Chrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-14923818650243275772012-03-22T20:25:26.379-04:002012-03-22T20:25:26.379-04:00actually, Wolf, there is. There are many highly e...actually, Wolf, there is. There are many highly educated, good looking women looking to get married who can't find a suitable mate. Mainly because men do not want to settle down until their thirties, at which point their female peers' ability to have kids is diminishing.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-24359888755077196982012-03-22T15:50:58.402-04:002012-03-22T15:50:58.402-04:00I never claimed the secular-world dating situation...I never claimed the secular-world dating situation was ideal -- but there is no "shidduch crisis" there/<br /><br />The WolfBrooklynWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03994285019137108636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-92006348656686932912012-03-22T12:28:39.391-04:002012-03-22T12:28:39.391-04:00I loved Garnel's "Artscroll family" ...I loved Garnel's "Artscroll family" naming and description.<br /><br />And indeed why shouldn't I get one of those girls?:)Pragmaticianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08724757238921859366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-12731049241800610502012-03-22T12:14:02.827-04:002012-03-22T12:14:02.827-04:00Excellent post!
Not sure if the dating situation...Excellent post! <br /><br />Not sure if the dating situation in the non-frum/Jewish world is ideal, but your point is certainly valid and well taken.Michael Lipkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11501487897038161582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-84857674140320108232012-03-22T00:41:03.461-04:002012-03-22T00:41:03.461-04:00Wolf, great post. The only thing I disagree is yo...Wolf, great post. The only thing I disagree is you somewhat idealized view of secular dating. I have read numerous articles and all of them say the same things: when there are more women than men, women are treated like cattle. It happens now in colleges, where female undergrads make up more than half of the undergrads; it happens in NYC where, for some reason, there are a lot more single women than men. In this situation early sexual involvement is almost a given and women must choose whether to give in on certain principles or risk being completely alone. And the stories of men stringing women along for years are just too numerous. I guess there are problems everywhere. Somehow, though, it seems that more often than not, women get the short end of the stick.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-89213112005204906552012-03-21T21:41:24.440-04:002012-03-21T21:41:24.440-04:00S. makes a good point about the short duration of ...S. makes a good point about the short duration of most frum courtships tipping the balance in favor of looks. There is good reason for why the expression "love at first sight" exists and the expression "love at first conversation" does not exist.<br />If a woman's looks are somewhat lacking, the chances of a man being smitten with her on the basis of a couple dozen hours of conversation are not substantial. The Wolf sights the "secular world's" ability to eventually pair everyone off, but it has much more time built into the process. Though she comes off as callous, the author of the piece is simply being realistic.Balansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-53152295879227380382012-03-21T21:15:25.497-04:002012-03-21T21:15:25.497-04:00I am not frum but have frum cousins who do kiruv a...I am not frum but have frum cousins who do kiruv and have spent a lot of time with frum guys who were unmarried, and have frum friends.<br /><br />I completely see what Wolf sees and have wondered about it for years. My secular friends all committed to family and children and met women they loved who ran the gamut. And these guys, on paper and in person, should have had their pick: Ivy League, handsome, great attitudes, good personalities. They married who they married and stay married.<br /><br />I listen to frum unmarrieds and often am startled at the way they view young women. Almost completely rating them on looks. The word that comes to mind is immature.<br /><br />Finally, I also believe that the whole keeping the genders apart just fosters unhealthy attitudes towards the opposite sex. I have not checked this out, but I understand that anorexia and bulimia are more pronounced in the frum community than in the secular world. And for guys, just a childishness towards girls that must be tough for the girls to bear.<br /><br />It’s sort of 1950’s but less healthy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-64043771076531816392012-03-21T20:47:38.082-04:002012-03-21T20:47:38.082-04:00Even within the realm of physical attractiveness, ...Even within the realm of physical attractiveness, the checklist is totally useless. i found my wife very attractive when we met, and even more so 30+ years later. But if you had asked me before we met to write down a checklist a what made a girl attractive to me, you would not have expected me to find her attractive. Similarly, checklists of desirable personality and religious traits are dehumanizing, and obscure the fact the we relate to people on an individual basis.<br /><br />But the fundamental problem with both the shidduch system and the more open dating system (which can also be dehumanizing) is that too many supposedly religious people forget that the Torah requires us to respect the human dignity of everyone, even those looking for a spouse. Until we teach that to our children until it is deep within their souls, tinkering with communal structure will at best offer marginal improvement.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-15332770460401018502012-03-21T18:59:41.984-04:002012-03-21T18:59:41.984-04:00Wolf - you are right, looks are not important when...Wolf - you are right, looks are not important when a man is choosing his wife, but in this warped frum world it's the mothers who are choosing the wife for their sons. It's the mothers who are trying to figure out what their sons might find attractive based on occasional superficial interaction. (I say it because I doubt there are many sons who have deep conversations with their mothers about how they feel about girls and what they think is attractive.)mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-62372012068355190212012-03-21T16:40:01.536-04:002012-03-21T16:40:01.536-04:00In a way, it’s the logical conclusion of the shidd...In a way, it’s the logical conclusion of the shidduch system. People are matched up largely based on lists of traits on paper, not by meeting and getting to know each other first or recommendations from people who know them. (In fact, people who do know a guy and a girl they think might be good for one antoerh often won’t set them up, because being a shadchan involves so much more than just giving the guy the girl’s number and telling the girl to expect his call.) In the abstract, physical beauty is very important. If you’ve never met the girl or heard from her friend about how great she is, if she exists not as a person but as an abstract resume, why not demand beauty? <br /><br />That said, there are plenty of non-models getting married everyday in the frum world, too.<br /><br />Wasn’t there a seminary a year or two ago that was trying to convince all of their students not to wear makeup, ever? You even posted about it:<br />http://wolfishmusings.blogspot.com/2009/09/todays-lesson-bride-makeup-bad.html<br /><br />So you have individuals on both extremes who get attention because crazy people make news. And you have most of the frum world, which is somewhere in the middle.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-32366755976701322182012-03-21T15:16:21.899-04:002012-03-21T15:16:21.899-04:00Great post!
"It's a shame that, in this a...Great post!<br />"It's a shame that, in this area where we claim to have superior values to the rest of the world, we find ourselves asking "Is she pretty?" as a "deal-maker/deal-breaker" question before going any further."<br /><br />I ask this question all the time. How is it that the frum community can pride themselves on being "special" & "separate" when we are guilty of such lows.<br /><br />P.S- You are the same "Wolfish Musings" that posts in the YWN Coffee Room, aren't you? I always enjoyed your style & I'm glad I found your blog.Defying Gravityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11954327882216794771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11425059.post-36972598478664558772012-03-21T14:38:51.760-04:002012-03-21T14:38:51.760-04:00I hear the point about the UWS, but is that really...I hear the point about the UWS, but is that really a representative sample? IOW, in the secular and non-Jewish worlds, there is also a subset of men and women- both attractive and not-as-much- who remain single indefinitely. Maybe they have 'committment issues', who knows- but the same could be said for their secular counterparts.<br /><br />I think what we need to understand regarding the 'shidduch system' vs. the, I'll call it the 'free-market' system, is that, well... it's a free market. The 'market' of potential matches will work itself out. And it does- that's why you see what seem to be lesser attractive people pairing with more attractive people. And yes, that happens in the shidduch world too, but the important difference is that in the non-shidduch system, no one is steering anyone or making anyone's choices.<br /><br />I'm sure you have heard about attractiveness studies where men and women were randomly assigned numbers which were affixed to their foreheads, so they could not see their own numbers, only others'. Almost all couples chose a partner with a number within 1-2 of their own.Ken Zein (formerly NJG)noreply@blogger.com