Thursday, December 27, 2007

When Is The Everlasting Torah Not Everlasting?

Can someone please square away for me the contradiction between the ikkar emunah (article of faith) that God won't change His Torah (and that the mitzvos are everlasting) and the statements in the gemara that in the days of Moshiach many of the Yomim Tovim will no longer be observed?

In short, do the 613 mitzvos apply forever or not?

The Wolf


mlevin said...

If in the next world we will live in utopia that means that there won't be any sin. If there is no sin, then we won't have anything to atone for on Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur. So, it's logical to assume that these two "Yom Tovs" will become absolete. Unless, we take up a securlar way of observing a New Year by getting drunk, wearing weird glasses and kissing at midnight.

-suitepotato- said...

He can change His mind, word, anything, at any time He wants to. I think that's an article more important to remember. Largely because it is through what is best in our hearts made in His image that we have had revealed how He is. And we know He hasn't been a fickle or random deity. It tells us that while He could change, He largely doesn't.

Which is not to say He doesn't fine tune as we progress. I'm sure He'd not make any people or world that He didn't also have left allowances for changes in. What if we create a supervirus that mutates us into a whole different species? Right and wrong still exist just as before, but now we might be physiologically incapable of following certain mitzvot.

I'm sure He understands.

So, they apply until they don't and as silly and circular as that sounds, I think our collective wisdom should tell us when. For instance, the ones regarding idolaters. If you find Catholicism to be idolatry, why don't we burn down Vatican City?

Does that mitzvah not apply? Does it? If it doesn't, why? If it does, why is it not being followed? When does it apply? Can a time be when it doesn't? Why?

Wisdom and the ability to see that not everything stays the same for all time is needed. With G-d's grace, we'll not kill each other trying to nail it down.

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Maybe it's a support for people who hold by non-formalist theories of Halakha... God won't repeal or change anything, but in the Messianic Age we'll have the power to do it ourselves.

Tobie said...

There's a similar question about the dimensions and laws in Yechezkel contradicting the ones in the Torah. I think the gemara gives some vague answer that either Yechezkel is metaphorical or that it's not exactly canceling mitzvot, it's just adding on and the world is then totally different so the old don't even claim to apply...or something like that.

The real problem with ever amending the Torah is that no prophet can be as great as Moshe or contradict his prophecy, I think. So if he comes back... ;)

TheAnswer said...

Does the Gm' say in the days of Moshiach this will happen or in Olam Habaah? It makes a big difference. Do you have a reference?

dovid komarov said...

Look in "Limits of orthodox theology" for a lot of info on that subject.

Anonymous said...

Or, look in Rosh Amanah (the Abravanel's response to the Rambam).

Moshe Y. Gluck said...

Lameisim Chafshi, and they aren't Mechyavim in Mitzvos - this Chazal is talking about the time after Techiyas hameisim. In any case, see Magid Meisharim, year 5306, 26 II Adar (page 186 in the Petach Tikvah 1990 edition).