From this DovBear thread:
What if one day these scientist prove that the Torah is correct. It'll be too late to get those who went off the derech back. Science always seems to be giving conflicting information.
Man, sometimes the stupid just hurts.
The Wolf
10 comments:
Reading this I've become an instant fan of those shidduchim which take into account genetic predisposition. I'm praying really hard that this commenter's kith and kin (not to mention him) are never redt to one of mine.
> Man, sometimes the stupid just hurts.
Amen
Actually I thought the best comment on the thread was the one about science being unreliable because Pluto was once thought to be a planet and now it isn't.
All I can say to that is just you wait. It ain't over yet. Pluto is going to come back in triumph. There's a movement afoot. The people united will never be defeated. Yes we can.
Ichabod Chrain
Pluto is not a planet. It is a dog.
People use the Pluto argument without understanding what it means.
Pluto lost its planetary status because it was classified as one way back when standards for classifying heavenly bodies (the ones in space, not Hollywood Blvd) were different. As the standards changed, Pluto was ignored for sentimental reasons - ie it hasn't been a planet according to more modern defintions for a long time but it's only recently that scientists got around to dealing with that.
However, the science itself hasn't changed. Pluto is still Pluto in terms of size, orbit, etc.
Science cannot prove the truth of Torah because Torah is based on faith, not reason. Reason would destroy faith since if I can prove the Torah is true scientifically, then where's the place for belief?
Neither is the Torah being asked to be proved scientifically. It's asking that we pay attention to its moral lessons, not use it as a history book.
Garnel: >Science cannot prove the truth of Torah because Torah is based on faith, not reason.
No. Science cannot prove the truth of the Torah because the Torah is false. Stop lying.
As I pointed out on that thread, it's apologists like you who enable those majorly deluded frummies.
By its nature,science is imperfect.Otherwise,there would be no reason to continually revise it. Therefore,when science proves Torah, there will be real reason to worry.
It's a great thread. Over 290 responses and counting.
The responses to the frum people who are asking how Dov Bear knows the scientific things are true, are missing the point. The reason science is true isn't that they test their hypotheses, it's because
Aristotle passed it down to Aquinas. Aquinas passed it down to Galileo. Galileo passed it down to Newton who passed it down to the Royal College of Scientists. The Royal College of Scientists passed it down to Darwin and Kelvin. Darwin and Kelvin passed it down to Einstein. Einstein passed it down to The History of Time (Hawking). So that's how we know. (And if you think for one second that you're a bigger scholar than The History of Time. . . )
Ichabod Chrain
Garnel:
"Neither is the Torah being asked to be proved scientifically. It's asking that we pay attention to its moral lessons, not use it as a history book."
Remember our discussion on the tower of babel. I showed you not only how this story was plagarized from the Sumerian myth of enmerker and the tower of Arratta but how, similar to how the Adam and Eve story is a mythology used to explain why people suffer. Similarly babel is a story designed to explain where different languages come from. Of course science shows that this story is false because this is not how languages evolve at all.
It seems you have once again changed your definition of Torah Misinai. In place of evidence to the contrary you changed Torah Misinai from "perfect Torah from Moses" to "yes torah has errors and changes, but its main purpose is to provide us halacha".
And now it seems you are changing it again to accomodate problems with science.
Garnel I just don't know any Orthodox who would accept your version of Torah MiSinai.
Most Orthodox just ignore biblical criticism, but what you are doing is literally changing your own religion to make loopholes. As can be seen in how you change your conception of torah misinai. How about going all the way, and like Kugel accept DH along with Torah divinity?
An honest person would acknowlegde that frankly Judaism has always taken these stories as literal history, something which the sciences have forced you to change. And despite the amount of reform/conservative bashing I see on your blog, your approach to torah matches far more what I see in reform/conservative synagogues than anything Orthodox.
In my opinion you and the other MO are just part of the transitioning phase that is moving Orthodoxy to slowly start becoming reform/conservative themselves.
Actually, scientists DID once think that Pluto's mass was larger than it really is.
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