I've been having a discussion (see the comments there) with an anonymous poster over at Yudel Shain about the phenomenon of kids being abused and kids going off the derech.
The anonymous poster made the claim that over 50% of the kids who go off the derech are abused.
I responded by stating that I found that figure to be a bit high. There are quite a few reasons why a kid (or anyone else) might go off the derech -- and certainly abuse is a potential reason to do so -- but to say that over half the OTD people are abused sounded just too far fetched to me. I thought that perhaps my disputant was simply phrasing his words incorrectly.
I asked if perhaps he meant that over 50% of abused kids go off the derech -- which is not quite the same as saying that 50% of OTD kids are abused. While I believe the former is in the realm of possibility, I'm far less certain that the latter is true.
Anonymous reaffirmed his original statement and, as a citation, brought an article by Rabbi Horowitz. In the article, Rabbi Horowitz quoted a person who operates a run-away shelter:
A close friend of mine runs a shelter/group home for charedi runaway kids. I recently ran into him at a wedding and asked him what his thoughts were on the correlation between abuse and the off-the-derech phenomenon. His immediate response was, “Yankie, all I deal with is abuse [victims],” meaning that virtually all the teens in his program were molested.
That's a pretty powerful quote. However, I began to think about it in the context of our discussion. It's possible, I thought, that perhaps this shelter operator is not seeing a representative sample of OTD kids. After all, he's not running a home for OTD kids, he's running a home for run-away kids. Many OTD kids don't run away from home -- heck, I know quite a few people who went OTD as teens who did not have the need to run away from home. On the other hand, kids that are abused (sexually and otherwise) frequently *do* have the need to run away from home. The shelter operator, in answering the question about the linkage between abuse and OTD kids, may be looking predominantly (or perhaps exclusively as per his claim) at abused kids. He never sees the kids who go OTD for other reasons.*
Furthermore, I went back and decided to read the entire article. As it turns out, the third paragraph in the article seems to say the exact opposite of what my correspondent was saying:
This is not to say that a majority of kids who are ‘off the derech’ were abused. But of all the complex and varied educational, social and familial factors that endanger to our children, the most damaging by far, in my opinion, is abuse. The very real threat posed by the external influences from which we all strive (in various degrees) to protect our children – such as media, Internet, and ‘bad friends’ – are all firecrackers compared to the atom bomb of sexual abuse.
Now, I absoltutely agree with Rabbi Horowitz (and my anonymous disputant) that sexual abuse is probably one of the strongest things that can cause a kid to go OTD. It's far more likely that a kid will go OTD from being sexually abused than from watching television, reading books about evolution or surfing the Internet. But all that means is that a kid who is sexually abused has a very good chance of going OTD. It still does not mean that the majority of people who go OTD are sexually abused.
So, what's the story? Am I reading this wrong? Is it really possible that half of the kids who go OTD are sexually abused? Or is my disputant just flat out wrong.
The Wolf
* Intellectual reasons, emotional reasons, or perhaps simply because they find the lifestyle too confining.
Showing posts with label Yudel Shain. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Yudel Shain. Show all posts
Monday, May 11, 2009
Monday, March 02, 2009
Bishul Akum and the Causes of Intermarriage
There are a number of decrees that were established by Chazal in order to prevent (or reduce) assimilation and intermarriage. One of those decrees is the rule against bishul akum (food cooked by a non-Jew). There are various rules and regulations surrounding the decree as to when and how it's applied and how much involvement a Jew must have in the meal preparation.
Since this is a rabbinic decree and not a commandment from the Torah, it makes sense to take a look at it. My understanding of it (and *please*, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that thousands of years ago, when the decree was enacted, eating with non-Jews could lead to assimilation and intermarriage. I would imagine a hired cook in the home or an innkeeper would probably have been the primary cases where eating such foods could lead to intermarriage and assimilation.
Of course, the world today is a different place. Unlike inns in the past, you're not likely to run across the cook in a modern hotel of any decent size. You're also unlikely to meet the chef in a restaurant or nursing home. That's not to say that the halachos surrounding bishul akum should be tossed out -- much like the laws surrounding the 2nd day of Yom Tov outside of Israel, they're here to stay. But nonetheless, in many cases, the consequences of assimilation and/or intermarriage is not present. Indeed, you'd probably have a much higher probability of intermarriage with the waitstaff at a restaurant or the person who brings around the trays at a nursing home rather than with the cook.
Yudel Shain mentions a conversation he had with R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l. As he puts it:
Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, OB"M told me that the reason of the high rate of assimilation is because as of the kulos & heterim of de americaner Rabonim in "bihul-akum und Yayin-nesech" halachos- I asked perhaps the Heteirim are acceptable? Reb Shlomo Zalman, responded it can't be-As CHAZAL said........otherwise we wouldn't have the high rate of assimilation.
He said "if we eliminate a bishul akum in New York, it will eliminate an intermarriage in Pariz.
To me, this sounded very strange and quite unbelieveable. We all know that the intermarriage rate among Jews is very high -- in some places in the neighborhood of 50%. I'm sure that the causes of intermarriage are fairly complex and numerous, but I can probably think of half a dozen things that would influence the rate of intermarriage more than kulos (lieniences) in the halachos of bishul akum. Even if you want to limit the study to Orthodox Jews alone (who have a much lower rate - but not zero - of intermarriage), there are probably still quite a few factors that would come into play in determining the causes of intermarriage before kulos in bishul akum. I could even accept that a violation of the bishul akum laws in New York may lead to intermarriages in New York, but how would they lead to intermarriages in Paris or anywhere else on a regular enough basis to merit mention by R. Auerbach?
Since the statement was troubling to me, and since I don't think R. Auerbach was a fool, I asked for some background and an explaination. When I pressed Yudel Shain for an explaination, I was told that in manufacturing plants and mosdos (institutions) bishul akum is the norm. I don't know whether that's true or not, but for the my reply, it didn't matter. My response to that was:
But even in those cases, how often does the consumer come into contact with the cook? In how many nursing homes do the residents get to meet the cook (and in how many of those cases does it lead to marriage between a resident and the cook?!)
The same thing applies all the more so in a manufacturing plant. I have no idea who is cooking the food - and I will certainly never meet them in the context of being the cook of my food.
If the point of bishul akum is to prevent intermarriage (something I agree with), then please tell me how it applies in these situations.
Or, to put it a different way -- I think there are other causes for intermarriage and assimilation that rank MUCH higher than bishul akum does in today's society.
His response:
SORRY, YOU MISSED IT COMPLETELY!
If you are lenient in Bishul-Akum in New Jersey, that will cause intermarriage in Paris.. FAR'SHTEIST????
Later on in the thread, it was stated that R. Avigdor Miller would state that people who ask such questions are Apikorsim (heretics). Fine, whatever... so I'm an apikores for asking, but I still would like an explaination. Or do you think R. Auerbach was simply engaging in a bit of hyperbole?
The Wolf
Since this is a rabbinic decree and not a commandment from the Torah, it makes sense to take a look at it. My understanding of it (and *please*, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that thousands of years ago, when the decree was enacted, eating with non-Jews could lead to assimilation and intermarriage. I would imagine a hired cook in the home or an innkeeper would probably have been the primary cases where eating such foods could lead to intermarriage and assimilation.
Of course, the world today is a different place. Unlike inns in the past, you're not likely to run across the cook in a modern hotel of any decent size. You're also unlikely to meet the chef in a restaurant or nursing home. That's not to say that the halachos surrounding bishul akum should be tossed out -- much like the laws surrounding the 2nd day of Yom Tov outside of Israel, they're here to stay. But nonetheless, in many cases, the consequences of assimilation and/or intermarriage is not present. Indeed, you'd probably have a much higher probability of intermarriage with the waitstaff at a restaurant or the person who brings around the trays at a nursing home rather than with the cook.
Yudel Shain mentions a conversation he had with R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l. As he puts it:
Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, OB"M told me that the reason of the high rate of assimilation is because as of the kulos & heterim of de americaner Rabonim in "bihul-akum und Yayin-nesech" halachos- I asked perhaps the Heteirim are acceptable? Reb Shlomo Zalman, responded it can't be-As CHAZAL said........otherwise we wouldn't have the high rate of assimilation.
He said "if we eliminate a bishul akum in New York, it will eliminate an intermarriage in Pariz.
To me, this sounded very strange and quite unbelieveable. We all know that the intermarriage rate among Jews is very high -- in some places in the neighborhood of 50%. I'm sure that the causes of intermarriage are fairly complex and numerous, but I can probably think of half a dozen things that would influence the rate of intermarriage more than kulos (lieniences) in the halachos of bishul akum. Even if you want to limit the study to Orthodox Jews alone (who have a much lower rate - but not zero - of intermarriage), there are probably still quite a few factors that would come into play in determining the causes of intermarriage before kulos in bishul akum. I could even accept that a violation of the bishul akum laws in New York may lead to intermarriages in New York, but how would they lead to intermarriages in Paris or anywhere else on a regular enough basis to merit mention by R. Auerbach?
Since the statement was troubling to me, and since I don't think R. Auerbach was a fool, I asked for some background and an explaination. When I pressed Yudel Shain for an explaination, I was told that in manufacturing plants and mosdos (institutions) bishul akum is the norm. I don't know whether that's true or not, but for the my reply, it didn't matter. My response to that was:
But even in those cases, how often does the consumer come into contact with the cook? In how many nursing homes do the residents get to meet the cook (and in how many of those cases does it lead to marriage between a resident and the cook?!)
The same thing applies all the more so in a manufacturing plant. I have no idea who is cooking the food - and I will certainly never meet them in the context of being the cook of my food.
If the point of bishul akum is to prevent intermarriage (something I agree with), then please tell me how it applies in these situations.
Or, to put it a different way -- I think there are other causes for intermarriage and assimilation that rank MUCH higher than bishul akum does in today's society.
His response:
SORRY, YOU MISSED IT COMPLETELY!
If you are lenient in Bishul-Akum in New Jersey, that will cause intermarriage in Paris.. FAR'SHTEIST????
Later on in the thread, it was stated that R. Avigdor Miller would state that people who ask such questions are Apikorsim (heretics). Fine, whatever... so I'm an apikores for asking, but I still would like an explaination. Or do you think R. Auerbach was simply engaging in a bit of hyperbole?
The Wolf
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