Frum People Don't Kiss or Hug Their Spouses...

... or at least that's what one couple wants their nearly teenage daughter to believe.

A very interesting and sad thread appeared on Imamother this past week in which the topic was discussed.  In the thread, a woman says that her very sheltered 12 year old daughter accidentally saw her neighbors making out on the couch.  The couple had apparently left their blinds open and hence the daughter was able to see them kissing and hugging.  Being very sheltered, she probably never saw anyone kiss beyond a quick peck on the cheek and was disgusted that her neighbors -- otherwise fine Jews (from my reading of the post) -- were "acting like chilonim."  As the poster puts it:

Obviously I'll never know just how much she saw but she was in total shock that this couple were "behaving like chilonim" and she was nauseous over the whole thing. Needless to say, my dd is very sheltered and could not imagine that anyone Charedi would do something so disgusting! 

The poster's first instinct was to tell the kid the truth -- that married couples do engage in such behavior but that it is meant to be private and that the couple should not have been doing such when others can see them.  And so she told her daughter.  Her daughter's reaction:

She was not happy with that answer and of course, started to ask me about her father and myself.  I didn't give her a straight answer but I did let her know that it's normal and natural.

So far, so good.  Kid sees something that was meant to be private.  Being a pre-teen and never having been exposed to this, she's kind of grossed out - a perfectly natural, normal reaction (given her upbringing).  Mother tells the child that it's normal and natural for couples to behave this way and that she'll learn more about it as she gets older.  

But the story doesn't end there.  When the woman's husband hears about the story, his reaction is different.  In her words:

When DH found this out he was not a happy camper. He would rather have her think that the neighbors are pervs or something. Oy.

And sure enough, he does just this.  In a later post, the woman recounts what happened the next day:

She ran to tell my dh about it this morning before I woke up. He told her that it's ossur and not done and that the neighbors are not beseder and that the only reason I said that it is done is because I didn't want to say bad things about the neighbors and that I didn't know what to say. She asked me if that's true and I said yes.

and

My husband says that the mere fact that she got such a shock from what she saw is enough of a reason to make sure she gets back on track and the only way to get her back to her equilibrium is to let her think that it's wrong. He says it's allowed by halacha to lie about this. I said that she'll eventually know I'm a liar and he said that the important thing here is not if I'm a liar or not - it's her state of mind.

The thread goes on for seven pages in total and in those seven pages, EVERY single woman who expressed an opinion on the matter all agreed that the initial response was the correct one and that her husband's approach was wrong.  These responses come from just about all segments of Orthodox Judaism as represented on Imamother -- Chareidi, Chassidic, Litvish, Modern Orthodox, etc.  Yet, in the end, she continues to stand by her husband's decision.

So, what's the end result here?

1.  Over the next few years, one or both of the following is going to happen to this poor girl:

     a.  She will internalize the message her father gave her, come to view physical intimacy with loathing and disgust and possibly even suffer from self-hate when her own hormones kick in and she begins to have desires for physical intimacy.  Oh, and heaven help her kallah teacher and future husband.


     b.  She will find out from her friends that her parents lied to her and that they cannot be trusted to provide her with serious mature answers to the important questions in life.

2.   The father, by telling his daughter that "it's ossur and not done and that the neighbors are not beseder" has, in effect, told her that the neighbors are disgusting perverts.  Granted, they should have closed the window blinds, but from the mother's description, it doesn't sound like we're dealing with serial exhibitionists here - it was a mistake, pure and simple.  But the father chose to paint them as deviants rather than have the courage to face the truth with his daughter.

3.  By telling his daughter that her mother lied, she, in effect, helped to undermine her credibility.  By "confirming" the "lie" (which, mind you, was in fact the truth), she has put herself in a position (vis-a-vis her daughter) from which she has no credible resolution.  IMHO, undermining a spouse's authority with anyone (and *especially* with her children) is one of the worst things you can do in a marriage. 

I don't want to address the fact that this couple has obviously never shown affection for each other in front of their kids.  If that's the way they want to run their marriage, that's their business.  It's not how Eeees and I run ours.  Our kids see us hug and kiss.  They can visibly see the affection that we have for each other -- whether we're in physical contact or not.  Eeees and I believe that it's healthy for children to see these things (and yes, they did go through their "ewwww" phase -- but they got over it) and to see that hugging, kissing and physical intimacy (within limits, of course) are perfectly normal and healthy in a married relationship. 

I can understand a parent wanting to keep their child sheltered.  It's a perfectly natural parental reaction.  Yes, some parents tend to overdo it, but at the core of a parent is the desire to protect his or her child.  Unfortunately, however, children cannot be sheltered forever.  At some point, they will have to be told about subjects that you might not want brought up -- and sometimes they'll come up sooner than you like.

We had this issue with one of our children.  Eeees and I were forced to give him information about intimacy sooner than we would have liked.  No, s/he didn't walk in on us or anything like that -- but s/he became aware of some information on his/her own and we, as parents, had to put that information in the proper context.  We could have lied to the kid and we could have buried our heads in the sand -- but that would have been the wrong thing to do.  The child would have grown up and internalized the wrong message about intimacy -- and that would have required far more extensive "fixing" later on and a total loss of trust in us as parents. So, we chose the responsible choice -- giving the child the information s/he needed and putting it in the proper context.

Children are naturally curious about the world.  They will constantly ask questions, and they will sometimes see or hear things that you would rather they not know about.  But a child also needs to know that they can come to their parents for accurate information when they see something that so shakes the foundation of their world.  That doesn't mean that you *have* to answer every question -- sometimes a subject should be avoided or pushed off -- but a child needs to understand that a parent won't lie to them.  As one poster in the thread beautifully put it, you can't be mechanech with sheker - period.

Perhaps our method isn't for everyone -- but I can say this:  if my kids had accidentally spied a married couple making out, they might have been a bit grossed out -- but they also would have realized that it's a natural part of the relationship.  Furthermore, they would know that they can talk to us about it and receive honest and truthful answers.  Eeees and I don't lie to our kids, nor do we EVER make the other parent out to be a liar.

The Wolf

Hat tip:  Pesky Settler and OnionSoupMix

Interesting Little Question...

I saw a post on Imamother, asking people to daven for a two-year-old boy who is currently suffering from swine flu and pneumonia. The name given on the thread is Yehoshua ben Miriam HaKohen. I hope he has a quick and complete refuah sh'laimah.

This reminds me of a long-standing (but not terribly important) question that I've always had. When someone's full Hebrew name is used the "HaKohen" title is added to it, does the HaKohen refer to the father or the son? IOW, if we call someone up with the name "Yankel ben Ploni HaKohen," are we attesting to the fact that Yankel is a Kohen, or that Ploni is a Kohen?

Of course, in most cases, it doesn't make a difference as they are both Kohanim. But that may not always be the case. It is certainly possible that the child could NOT be a kohen (imagine a non-frum kohanic father marrying a divorcee and the child -- a challal -- later becoming frum) or even that the child is a Kohen and the father is not (as in a case of adoption -- where I have seen teshuvos where the child should be called as the son of the adopted father).

In such cases, how would you call the person to the Torah? Suppose the son is a challal -- I suppose you could call him up as Yankel HaYisroel ben Ploni HaKohen (although I've never seen it done -- but then again, I don't personally know any challalim either). I would think that you shouldn't just call him up as Yankel ben Ploni since that could lead to a question of P'gam Kehunah (his father, despite his sin, is *still* a kohen and may have other, "legitimate" kohanic children). So, how would you call him up?

Likewise, in the case of an adopted kohen, how would he be called up (according to the opinions that hold that you can use the adopted father's name)? I suppose you could say "Yankel HaKohen ben Ploni." I might think that "Yankel ben Ploni HaKohen might be more problematic as it makes it sound like Ploni is a Kohen.

So, to whom does "HaKohen" refer to in someone's Hebrew name? And, if, in truth, it applies to the father, shouldn't this child be called simply Yehoshua ben Miriam? Or maybe Yehoshua HaKohen ben Miriam?*

The Wolf


* Yes, I suppose it's possible that Miriam is a bas Kohen. But I've never heard of a bas Kohen's daughter or son being davened for a ben/bas Plonis HaKohenes...

Attack of the Torah-Learning Zombies

I came across an interesting Imamother post regarding what to expect when Moshiach comes. The thread is titled "PSA from Eliyahu HaNavi." It was originally posted before Succos.

Gmar tov to all yidden everywhere!

As promised I am letting you know a day before that mashiach is coming this motzai Shabbos (ohr l'yud gimmel Tishrei). Please be aware of the following:

1. Please report to airports straight after havdalla. Planes will be waiting. You can leave your sukkos and freezers full of YT food behind.

2. Please ensure your dress conforms to halacha. Any doubts should be checked with your LOR.

3. Our customs officials in EY will now check your baggage for strict adherence to ratzon Hashem. Please do not embarrass yourselves or them by bringing secular literature, equipment for using media not in accordance with ratzon Hashem, computers etc. Those who had heterim for using certain equipment for parnassa reasons - the heterim are no longer valid, since you will be living directly from Hashem's bounty, with your work done by non-Jews and therefore will have no need for parnassa.

4. Each family will be allotted a small apartment in line with their needs. These are Israeli sized, so please do not bring excess baggage. Please do not bring more than the minimum necessary amount of clothing for each person. No electric/ electronic gadgets (as mentioned you will have non-Jewish help).

5. Each family will be allotted their apartment in their chelek (portion) according to their original shevet (tribe). Please do not embarrass anyone, including yourselves, by requesting a particular location or neighbours. Please be aware that your neighbours will include original family members who may have been living in any country previously - many already lived in Israel, or are from the former Soviet Union, Ethiopia, South America etc. We are sure that your ahavas Yisroel knows no bounds and you will enjoy their company.

6. All boys will be enrolled in Talmudei Torah teaching only Torah. We are sure that you are aware that those rabbonim who allowed secular studies in the past did so only for parnassa reasons. Now that this no longer applies all boys will learn Torah exclusively.

7. All Jews will spend their time learning Torah and in avodas Hashem.

8. All food will be with the kedusha of EY and its accompanying mitzvos and spiritual benefits. This means no food will be imported from outside EY. Please do not bring any as personal baggage either.

Shavua tov and bruchim habaim!

While the post is certainly cute, original and entertaining, it also (perhaps inadvertently) reveals some interesting ideas that she has.

For starters, I wonder if she thinks there is any room for individual creativity outside the realm of Torah learning in the days of Moshiach. Take me, for example. One of my hobbies is photography. However, it would seem from her post that digital photography is out. After all, without a computer (prohibited by point 3), there is really very little that I can do. Even if you maintain that pictures of flowers, insects, animals, etc. are a waste of time, there are still enough legitimate uses for photography (pictures of gedolim, family pictures, snapshots, etc.) that I would think that it should be permitted -- and without amateurs and hobbyists, you rarely end up with professionals.

Of course, photography is not the only example I can think of. Music (composition, performance, etc.), writing, etc. are also hobbies that use modern equipment which would probably be prohibited in her vision of Moshiach's days.

As bad as that sounds, I think that there is even a deeper level to her idea of when Moshiach comes... the idea that creativity and individuality themselves are a bad thing. In her world, it seems that all men will learn Torah all the time and have time for nothing else. After all, to her, nothing else has intrinsic value. Secular literature -- verbotten. Practical learning -- who needs it? The non-Jews will do all our work for us anyway.* Creativity? Heck, who needs to waste time with things like writing, art, music, poetry, etc.?

In short, it seems that in her vision, we're all to just become drones who have no desire except to learn Torah every day all day, with nary an outside interest. We'll simply become "zombies" with the desire to do anything other than learn Torah simply sucked out of us.

Ultimately, I find it interesting that this is the vision of Moshiach's times that she has. Now, I don't want to say that her opinion is wrong; I don't know for a fact that it is (nor do I think anyone will know until it happens). However, I'd like to think that the same Creator who created us with a diverse set of skills, talents and desires will want us to continue using them in the future. I'd like to think that a photograph of the beauty of nature will lead one to a further appreciation of the wonders of Creation and a greater appreaciation of its Creator. I shudder to think of a world where I wasn't allowed to take a day and go out and shoot some flowers or insects or beautiful landscapes because I simply lost the interest in doing anything else. I can't imagine a world where God grants us the wonderful gift of creativity and being forbidden to use it except in one narrow area. In short, I can't see how it is that God wants us to become Torah learning zombies.

Does that mean that I think that Torah learning won't increase or be a major factor in life in the days of Moshiach? No, not at all. In fact, you can argue that the incredible growth in Torah learning in the last twenty years or so is a step in the right direction toward the coming of Moshiach. But I just don't see it as being the only thing in life -- even in Moshiach's days.

The Wolf

Hat tip: OnionSoupMix

* Just as an aside, the idea of having a group of people who do all the work and another group that simply benefits from it eeriely brings to my mind the words "Morlocks" and "Eloi."

How Not To Teach Your Kids About Dinosaurs

The age old question of dinosaurs (pun intended) was brought up in an Imamother thread recently. A poster took her son to the museum where they had a mock archeology dig. However, when her son began asking her questions about dinosaurs and the Torah approach to them, she didn't quite know what to answer.

One poster put in with this comment:

I don't see why there's any need to validate the museum's "hashkafa", or not imply that it's not what we believe.

Surely your son understands that the museum guides aren't Jewish, and he can be simply told that the whole dinosoar thing is goyishe . It shouldn't be hard for him to understand that while we are so lucky we have the Torah, where it tells us how Hashem created the world, Breishis Borah Elokim, etc., and the Torah is truth, Toras Emes, so we know the truth,

but that goyim don't have/ believe in the Torah, and sometimes they make things up taht are not true, like dinosoars and other "shtusim" e.g. fairy-tales.( you don't have to go into the whole evolutionary theory and refute it here, for your innocent little three year old's keppeh'le, just say that it's not what it says in the Torah, and goyim made up these stories.)

Now, if you want to believe that "the whole dinosaur thing is goyishe," I suppose I can't stop you. After all, it's your life and you're free to believe whatever you wish, however mistaken and foolish it might be. But I really want to focus on is not so much her personal belief, but the way she would choose to express it to her son.

Her approach is to tell her son that the "goyims'" lives are so empty without Torah, so devoid of purpose, that they have to make up silly things like dinosaurs in order to give their lives meaning. The main problem with this approach, very simply, is that it is a big, fat lie. I wasn't aware that the prohibition of m'dvar sheker tirchak ended when talking about non-Jews.

Putting aside the aspect of the prohibition, there is another problem with this approach -- very simply, what happens when the child finds out that what his mother told him is simply not true. Lying to children in order to teach a lesson is always bad policy. From the rebbe who tells his students that foods taste better when you make a bracha on them to the parent who tells their kid that scientists are only interested in taking people away from serving HaShem, they spread lies and misinformation to children who, at that age, don't know better.

There is also the question of what happens when the child finds out that she or he has been lied to. No matter how insular your community, there is likely to come a day when you might actually have the opportunity to talk for five minutes with someone another faith, and you find out that they *don't* believe that dinosaurs were made up to give their hollow, empty lives meaning. They might even find out that some of them take their faith in Christianity or Islam or whatever religion seriously, and draw real strength and inspiration from it -- much as they do from the Torah. They may even realize that the non-Jew they are speaking to doesn't believe in dinosaurs either. :)

Even if they never meet Christian or Muslim or Hindu or whatever for a length of time long enough to start a conversation, there's even the danger that they may be able to piece it together for themselves. They may eventually reason "why would they make up something so silly as a dinosaur to give their lives meaning?" They may begin to wonder why billions of people would be willing to walk around in self-delusion about the existence of dinosaurs.

And you don't have to be an adult to reason that out -- heck, I did it in eighth grade. I had a classmate at the time who tried to tell me that all the Christians in the world *know* that Judaism is the true religion, and that they are all just faking it. Now, I didn't know a single non-Jew at the time -- and yet, I was able to instantly spot how ridiculous that sounded. I sometimes wonder if my classmate ever met a devout Christian at some point later in his life, and if he did, how he reconciled the man's faith with his own world view.

With children, however, I think it is very important to always tell the truth when trying to impart important life lessons about Yiddishkeit. Basing your lessons on lies is dangerous, because once the child learns the truth (and, in all likelihood, they *will* learn the truth), they will begin to realize that they've been sold a bill of goods, and they might not be able to distinguish between the lies that they were told, and the truth that they were told. And that road often leads to total rejection.

In short, if you don't want to tell your kids about dinosaurs, then by all means, don't say anything. But don't say something as ridiculous as that the "goyim" make it up because they don't have the Torah.

The Wolf