Wednesday, September 30, 2009

To The Girl on the B44 Bus Last Night...

Yes, you... the redhead reading Rabbi Falk's book on tznius on the B44 at 11:00 last night...

I know you might think it a breach of tznius to say "thank you" when a guy holds a door open for you. But I'm fairly certain that Rabbi Falk would approve of obeying common courtesy.

The Wolf

27 comments:

tesyaa said...

No, I think you're wrong in that assumption about Rabbi Falk.

Garnel Ironheart said...

A while ago there was a post on Cross Currents in which someone described the halachic debate on whether one should use cutlery while eating, given that they are a relatively recent innovation.

And my comment (which surprisingly got posted) was: This is why Orthodoxy is in such trouble. Any moron knows you should use cutlery. Only talmidei chachamim have to ask if it's okay.

It's the same thing here. Yes, technically she shouldn't be speaking to a strange man but the prohibition against rudeness trumps that.

G*3 said...

It may not be a tznius issue. She could just not have been taught to say thank you.

000646 said...

I think Rabbi falk would not approve of obeying common courtesy

Redhead said...

That was you?

Anonymous said...

You give Falk too much credit.

Anonymous said...

...and her perhaps not enough. Maybe she was just distracted and she's normally more polite? Dan l'kaf zechus and all that.

ProfK said...

Could be that she feared a tsnius breach if she spoke to you. Could be that she was concentrating on something else and your courtesy didn't register with her. Also could be that at 11:00 at night she was not going to make eye contact or any kind of contact with a strange male (whether he looked frum or not--looks can be real deceiving) as she is leaving a bus and having to walk alone in the dark.

Lots of speculation possible and no real answer that is going to be forthcoming.

Anonymous said...

"Also could be that at 11:00 at night she was not going to make eye contact or any kind of contact with a strange male"

That's dumb. Eye contact is a good way to gauge threat.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

A stern head-nod is not so bad...

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

By the way, you’ve got ads here that say things like “Jesus the Jewish messiah”...

BrooklynWolf said...

Maybe she was just distracted and she's normally more polite?

Admittedly, that's a possibility.

The Wolf

BrooklynWolf said...

you’ve got ads

Thanks for the head's up. If you see them again, please drop me an email with the URL that they go to (it's usually listed at the bottom of the ad) so that I can have it blocked.

The Wolf

aaron from L.A. said...

Derech eretz kodma la'Torah...that was something they taught in my day.Of course,that's before it became fashionable to be a chnyok.

G6 said...

Sadly, I must weigh in with the majority on this one, thinking you may not be correctly understanding Rav Falk's stance.

Doubly sad is that in this day and age Derech Eretz is the poor stepchild while excessive chumros seem to be the wicked stepmother.

Anonymous said...

1. By the mere mention of the Rav shlita's name in a forum such as this you have violated halachah. It's avak loshon hara as the previous comments have so sadly illustrated. I seriously doubt most of these commenters have taken the time or trouble to actually read the book before forming an opinion.

Joseph said...

Wolf:

A) Why did you feel the necessity of dragging Rav Falk Shlita into your diatribe against the girl? Even if your point is correct that she should have said thank you, you acknowledged Rav Falk would agree with your position. So what was the point of mentioning she was reading Rav Falk's Sefer? If she was reading American History 101, I do not think that would have made it into your post.

B) What makes you certain it is Rav Falk's shitta that she may talk to a strange man (even to say thank you)? You may not like such a shitta, but you cannot deny it.

Joseph said...

And what was the point of pointing out she was a redhead?

And does that, as well as the fact you made sure to notice what book she was reading, indicate you paid close attention to her?

000646 said...

I read rabbi falks book it is full of chumros and insanities for example he strongly insinuates that a woman who wears pants is chayiv skila! (look in the appendix of the book under trousers i dont remember exactly which page it was.)
Anyway there is somthing seriosly wrong with a man writing a tznius book about EXACTLY which kind of stockings ect. make a woman more attractive to look at and mentioning details no sane male notices

BrooklynWolf said...

And what was the point of pointing out she was a redhead?

And does that, as well as the fact you made sure to notice what book she was reading, indicate you paid close attention to her?


C'mon, Joseph, you're better than that.

When you're on the bus with very few people late at night and nothing to read, you notice the other passengers -- nothing more, nothing less.

As for why I included the fact that she was a redhead -- well, I did for the same reason that I included what she was reading, the route and the time -- on the (extremely offhand) chance that she might read this. She (not you) was the primary intended audience of the post - but blogging being what it is, it's also open to everyone.

As for you contention that Rav Falk may NOT allow her to say thank you -- I grant that that's a possibility -- but one I find hard to accept.

The Wolf

Joseph said...

You failed to address Point A in my comment.

BrooklynWolf said...

No I didn't. I mentioned the book because I thought it would help her realize it was her if she ever read this.

The Wolf

Joseph said...

1. Why are you so incredulous that there are valid shittos that it is preferable to avoid talking to a strange man?

I'm sure you know of this shitto and can respect it.

2. Do you find it to be such a stress a situation where guy meets girl on bus, holds open door for her, she says thank you, they chit-chat, exchange info, and things progress (or rather regress)? I'm sure you're not that naive.

BrooklynWolf said...

1. Why are you so incredulous that there are valid shittos that it is preferable to avoid talking to a strange man?

I'm not talking about holding a conversation or her writing an epic poem to commemorate his grand deed of holding the door open... I'm talking about a two word "thank you" - nothing more.

Do you find it to be such a stress a situation where guy meets girl on bus, holds open door for her, she says thank you, they chit-chat, exchange info, and things progress (or rather regress)? I'm sure you're not that naive.

You mean... gasp! There might be the opportunity for a shidduch on their own?

Yes, I'm already married, but it could just as easily have been a single guy.

And besides, how many times to you think a two word "thank you" progresses to a torrid affair?

The Wolf

Joseph said...

You mean... gasp! There might be the opportunity for a shidduch on their own?

Allowing to happen "shidduch's on their own" opens up a great big Pandora's box, as you well know.

Yes, I'm already married, but...

Ah, additional proof to my preceding point.

And besides, how many times to you think a two word "thank you" progresses to a torrid affair?

How many times!? How many times of it happening is sufficient for our leaders to close such "opportunities."

BrooklynWolf said...

How many times!? How many times of it happening is sufficient for our leaders to close such "opportunities."

Ah... but now you're falling into the If Only One... fallacy.

Considering the percentage of "torrid affairs" that come from simple saying of "thank you" (very very small), I don't think that it's worth instituting mass rudeness.

In any event, you're going to like my next post, which is based off of this conversation we're having.

The Wolf

BrooklynWolf said...

Here you go...

Am I A Deviant....

The Wolf