Tuesday, May 16, 2006

Quote Of The Day

Over on ChabadTalk, I was persuing a long thread on the subject of whether or not Tzadikkim are infallible.

One poster said:

Did Hashem ever punish David HaMelech for doing anything wrong? Yes, more than a couple times. Nathan HaNavi went to rebuke David and David said one word - Chatati.

There should be no need to remind ourselves of these Jewish ideas-- that our most G-dly Tzaddikim are still human beings, not all-powerful and not all-knowing, and if they aren't vigilant enough, they can have a yerida (a fall). This is one of the first lessons in the Torah-- that a person on the level of Adam at the highest peak of wisdom and closeness to Hashem, if he is not careful, he can lose his level and fall. To reject these ideas, is to subscribe to a different religion.

In response to this, another poster responded (emphasis mine):

even if the general point you make is valid, about Tzaddikim erring etc, with which i disagree, the examples you brought are from Chazal and Tanach which seems to say the Tzaddik erred etc.
How relevant is this to our discussion, where ploni almoni wishes to give HIS own opinion that This or that Tzaddik, in his opinion erred, even to the point of saying his own "alleged" Rebbe erred. You call that another religion. I say that saying that about your Rebbe is kefira ( and dont ask me for the source).

Scary, isn't it? Saying that your Rebbe is fallible is not simply in error, but is kefira!


The Wolf


and so it shall be... said...

"You call that another religion. I say that saying that about your Rebbe is kefira ( and dont ask me for the source)."

What a waste of yeshiva tuition.

Ben Avuyah said...

Isn't there a gemarah that says, "kol haomer david chatah aino elah toeh".

In any case you can see this type of thinking has it's roots....

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

infallible = cannot err
fallible = can err

BrooklynWolf said...

Thanks, Steg. I knew that... I just goofed up in the typing. It's been corrected.

The Wolf

Anonymous said...

Brooklyn Wolf

Why do you bother with these posts? I go through enough emunah issues as it is without reading about idiots like these :)

Mississippi Fred MacDowell said...

>Isn't there a gemarah that says, "kol haomer david chatah aino elah toeh".

What's striking about that statement is not that it was made, but how tepid it is.

BrooklynWolf said...

If you want to say that about Dovid Hamelech, then fine. But to say that it's kefira to state that your Rebbe is fallible?!

The Wolf

Orthonomics said...

Like you, all I can say is sigh. And, I think poster 2 represents most of Chabad.

topshadchan said...

Lakewood yid has been arguing this very apoint, so SL its not only chabad.
This view is in Lakewood and Bnei Brak as well.

Orthonomics said...

Happy-Unfortunately you are correct. I wish we could turn back the hands of time.

Anonymous said...

See the Abarbenel who contrary to chazal's statement "kol haomer .."
he goes hard on dovid hamelech and bat sheva.

Anonymous said...

When you say:

"Judaism is not about assuming that Rabbis have advanced medical or scientific knowledge in the absence of rigorous training in said fields."

what do you mean by "assuming"?

We have countless stories of tzadikim who helped those who turned to them with life and death medical decisions despite the fact that they never set foot in medical school.

Ditto for advice about parnasa from tzadikim who did not have MBA's. The nature of both the medical and financial advice was ruach ha'kodesh.

What do you make of this? Sounds like you reject it. I wonder why.

Anonymous said...

BIG difference if CHAZAL say something about a tzaddik and if you and me were to say something about a tzaddik, assessing his deeds.

"Kol ha'meharher achar rabo ..."

p.s. it would be helpful if the comments window had the title of the article we are commenting on!

Anonymous said...

The gemara about Dovid ha Melech does NOT mean he did not commit ANY sin, it means he did not commit the sin of adultery. See Rashi on that gemara. Dovid ha Melekh himself said that he sinned "Chatasi la Hashem."